[00:00:00] Speaker A: I'm not the best at anything. My ability to take the spotlight and put it on people so that others could see either the excellence of that person or the humanity of that person or the connection they could have with that person, then that's the best that I can do with the opportunities I've had in my life.
[00:00:19] Speaker B: I'm Diana Earley. I know firsthand what privilege costs. Losing sight of your own path.
The isolation, the distrust and the guilt of feeling stuck in a life everyone thinks you should be grateful for.
Pressure isn't always the enemy. It reveals character. It challenges us. And it's something we all share. Rich or not, whether you built your wealth or were entrusted with it, sooner or later you have to ask, what is this for?
Welcome to the Pressures of Privilege show.
I met Peter in Gstaad. Our kids became friends. We were in a small writing group together. He published his book, I didn't. Then he moved to Africa and we stayed friends. Most people know Peter by his resume and it's a big one. He brought top dogs to China, Eddie Izzard to New York and Jerry Seinfeld to London. He ran what is now the largest cattle company in the world. He co owned a rugby team with Russell Crow. The South Sydney Rabidos went from the bottom of the league to the top. He studied law at Oxford. He's been a media leader at Davos since 2012. He has given two TedX talks. And then he walked away. Peter, welcome.
[00:01:30] Speaker A: Not a bad intro. I'll take that. I'll take that.
[00:01:34] Speaker B: Good, good, good. You moved to that small town in France with your seven year old girls. You know, your wife was touring France with your twin boys. And you spent your days watching a bicycle get built by hand. And you started your book Riding with Giants. Then you all came together in Gstaad. And that's when I met you guys.
[00:01:50] Speaker A: My God, you paid attention. You mean all those times I read my papers nervously to this writing group, you know, would I be good enough for you? Very smart people.
You actually paid attention. That's kind of amazing.
[00:02:05] Speaker B: Well, you were a huge part of like. Also that group was a huge support for me when I was going through a really tough time. I don't know if you remember that.
[00:02:14] Speaker A: Well, I don't know. It's that. It's that thing where the organizations we're part of, they're not the whole story. We're in a writing group, but we're all going through stuff. We're writing because we're going through stuff.
I think most People are coasting. Don't say I should write a difficult book that really looks into my past and understands it. Most people who are coasting, so we're all going through stuff. We're all in transition. We're all a different age, kids going different directions.
And, you know, I got an opportunity that I would say was one of the best opportunities of my life, that I was in a riding group.
I don't like to say Gstaad, because that was a fancy town up the road. We were in Zana. We used to meet in the land house in the background. The guy that ran the garage, the guy that ran the ski shop, and the guy that probably owned half the town. We're all having coffee in the background while we would meet and talk about books and read a chapter.
And then I recently came across a set of notes. I was cleaning out an office, and I came across a set of notes from that group.
And I like to write a lot and print it out. The amount of comments was just ridiculous. Ridiculous. All I gave you was a chapter, and you guys have ripped me to shreds. But anyway, there's no way my book would have got written without you guys. And without you specifically, there's no way I would have got my book done without that privileged opportunity to sit down with you guys.
[00:03:55] Speaker B: Well, you brought the group together. I remember I was trying to do this on my own. Then somebody at the school, we were parents at the same school, said, oh, Peter's putting together a group to write.
You better get to know him. And I was like, all right, I think I sought you out. And I was like, I want to be part of this writing group. You're good at putting community together.
[00:04:14] Speaker A: I am a compulsive convener. I love this about cats. I don't know if you know, cats are compulsive hunters. That's why when you dangle something in front of them, like, they can't stop trying to attack it. So there's a study which, you know, these days, ethically, you can't do where they drugged a cat.
And as the cat is, like, falling asleep, like, they're. They're dragging a mouse, and then the cat is falling asleep, and then it's reaching for the mouse.
Can't even.
So. So dogs are different. Dogs are not compulsive hunters. Cats are compulsive hunters. I think I'm a compulsive convener. The best stuff that's happened in my life has happened when people come together, and it doesn't have to be about me. But if someone else is not doing it, I will just do it and say, turn up and get there. The title for me at Africa House today is called Chief Convener.
That's what I see as what I can do. I can handle the variables and the unknowns are three people coming tonight or 42.
Will that person I don't like turn up with that other person I don't like? I can handle that uncertainty because the payoff for me is that I get to remember those three years, whatever it was, in Zarnon, in the land house, working with you guys.
And we all came from different backgrounds and I feel very blessed for that time. So when you asked me to come on this, but for the fact that I forgot the last two times I was supposed to be on or I was traveling or something. But for that, I was very keen to come on.
[00:06:04] Speaker B: Yeah, it was a good time. I've been dripping my story on my substack little by little.
[00:06:09] Speaker A: I don't know if, you know, I've noticed. I don't know how I feel about that. Like, is that because you need the safety of it, of dripping the story? Does that then mean you don't take the big risks? I don't know.
I'm just a guy from your riding route back in the day. Okay.
[00:06:27] Speaker B: You've always challenged me. You've always challenged me. Peter. I'm a weekly kind of journalist. I love weekly deadlines. Right now I'm working on my own. I don't have an editor. So this weekly deadline that I impose on myself helps me. I need that pressure. Like our writing group gave me a weekly deadline.
[00:06:41] Speaker A: I remember back in the day knowing journalists who used to work for newspapers that would have like a 5 o' clock deadline.
They come out in the morning, but they had to get the main stories in by five so they could be typeset. I mean, literally someone moving stuff around. And then they would each day for like 30 years of their life, they hit the deadline at 5 o', clock, put the paper to bed, get it out to the printers, get it to the printers, get it on trucks. Trucks would drive to a shop, put it in a shop, it would walk by and buy the newspaper.
I remember those people talking about their experience years later that about 4 o' clock, they would get adrenaline. They're like, what do I have to do? I've got to close store. We've got to get started. Like, dude, it's a Saturday afternoon. It's like, you're not working for the news. It's 10 years since you're not working for the newspaper and they were just, they were always on the clock of deadline and doing so. I totally understand. If you're a weekly writer, that must work great for you. Just you keep doing your thing. Don't listen to me, you didn't in the past.
[00:07:50] Speaker B: Anyway, I sort of see my subscribers as beta readers. They're kind of like a, you know, 500 people get my, my newsletter and it's like, you know, we were only six people in that little group in Sodom.
[00:08:01] Speaker A: The process of writing is now, it's so diffuse. What is an author like? An extremely well put together slideshow on Instagram can have as much impact as a 4,000, 10,000 word book. What does it matter what the format is, right? I always used to say when I was doing a book publishing thing and talking to book publishers, they were like, yeah, if you can tell your story in 300 words, we're not interested. You need to be able to tell your story in a hundred thousand, two hundred thousand words to make a business out of it. And so if what your thing becomes is a series of substack posts that people can one day look through, sort, do search, whatever.
I think we went through a narrow aperture of books and book publishing as it was, went through a very narrow aperture.
So I celebrate you doing it differently. And we had a whole bunch of new models. So great, go for it.
[00:09:13] Speaker B: Well, anyway, take us back to France, Peter. Like what, what made you like, walk away from the life you, you had back in, in Australia?
[00:09:23] Speaker A: My first step away was, I think I was 29, I think I was 29 or 31, but I was in that area and I was the youngest CEO of a top 100 company in Australia. I had sort of achieved in that path, the path of economics degree and law degree, worked for an investment bank, run a company, sell a company, CEO.
I'd achieved exactly the path at an earlier age than anyone else in Australia. Big deal. And I had twin boys.
And I realized that if I kept going the way that I was going, I was never going to see them. I used to say, for a million dollar salary, $500,000 is for your work and $500,000 is for your soul.
I was like, I don't want to give that.
I love what I do. I love the company, the structure of CEO, lifestyle, road shows, on the road, response abilities, et cetera, et cetera.
I wasn't prepared to give that at the expense of seeing my own boys grow up. That was George and Robert. They were like 4 years old or 5 years old. And I realized I'm going to miss them. So when Devon, the mother of
[00:11:01] Speaker B: the
[00:11:01] Speaker A: twin boys and twin girls, took off to Ewer and I had a new, brand new fancy job in Sydney, it was not a question for me. It was like, between being there for your kids and having a fantastic job, like, I do actually say, you know, feeling good. I've had some of the best jobs in the world, as you said.
Taking Jerry Seinfeld for his first European tour at Izard to the us, running the business, cattle company, winning the premiership with Russell Crowe, had some pretty good
[00:11:38] Speaker B: jobs, by the way. I knew none of that. I knew you, by the way.
[00:11:41] Speaker A: That's exactly the way it should be.
I was just a guy driving his kids to school in the morning and pick him up. So then at that job, at the time was I was running brand Sydney. So I was running the branding agency for Sydney Australia, which when I traveled around the world to meet my peers in the Citi branding world, they were like, you have the best job in the world. Like, Sydney sells itself.
I'm working for St. Louis. We're trying to get conferences to St. Louis. That's hard work. Getting people to come to Sydney, Australia is not. So that was one of the best jobs I've had in the world. But I would give that up in a heartbeat to be with my kids.
And I say this to people who have kids and people who don't have kids, because when you don't have kids, as a lot of my friends don't have kids, you invest in other young humans, and it is such a joy to invest in other young humans.
My older kids live in America, I live in Africa. I don't see them as much as I would like to. My youngest, my fifth, Jaden, is here in Africa with me. I feel that the investing in young people, they really don't have to be yours. And sometimes it's better if they're not yours. You can actually play that uncle role. It is the gift that keeps on giving.
Like they keep getting better and better and better and better. As every year goes on, your relationship enriches, you know, the. What I call the silverware, you know, like when you win a trophy, they give you a thing I call silverware. The silverware you get gets dusty over time, but the people you invest in get better and better. And that's been one of the big joys of my life. So when you say to me, you made a decision, drop out there wasn't a decision. Go with your kids, go with young people, support young people. And I picked up and moved to France, and then I ended up in Switzerland.
[00:13:53] Speaker B: Well, people should pick up the book to find out what happens. But you, the short story is you found a small bike factory, and, you know, what did you see there that you never saw in a boardroom?
[00:14:03] Speaker A: It's worth pointing out that I moved to a tiny French town, and technically, the town that I was in had 11 residents, and the closest factory happened to make bicycles. And true story, I had registered. When I went to France for what I thought was a year, I'd registered to ride a day of the Tour de France.
And I had all the intention, somewhat of the thighs, but I didn't have a bicycle.
And I get to this ridiculously small town, and the closest factory makes bicycles, handmade, beautiful bicycles that people ride in things like the Tour de France.
So I don't know which particular angel was on what shoulder of mine.
Definitely was a devil, which is like, let's move to Europe to do a bike race without a bicycle was on one side. And then there was this little angel goes, don't worry, I'll put you in a small town of 11 people, and next door will be a bicycle factory, and you'll be able to go to a bicycle.
I walked into the bicycle factory. They measured me, and I ordered a bicycle. As you know, one of my passions is photography, and I had my big Canon camera.
It's a beast. It's the opposite of working with my iPhone. I take photographs.
It's a beast of a camera. You literally have to make a tripod out of your body to hold it straight because it's so heavy. But that also allows you to be in the process of taking photographs. And I carry that everywhere I went with me.
And so I started going to this bicycle factory, and I started photographing. Four months, 20,000 photographs later, I had a bicycle. But more, I had an observation and a study of people at work, that part of work which actually has a deeply European history, which is working with excellence, working with your hands and your mind and your heart, and working with excellence, even if your job was just to sandpaper the neck of the bicycle and make it smooth, to do that with absolute care and attention.
So to have the bike come to you in this stage, to do that and then pass it on, and I just sat and I documented my bike and then other bikes being made and just watched people at work and got a real understanding for the role of excellence. In work, the personal reward that can come from excellence, just the just doing the job really well and how good that can, how good that can feel.
And yeah, I think it was a, it was a really fortunate. That's why I ended up writing my book about, you know, and the modern history of capitalism and raising seven year old girls. But I put it all together in a book, you know. The point is, I feel incredibly lucky to be having given that opportunity and worked a lot of it out with you in that writing book.
[00:17:31] Speaker B: Yeah. Because you, you talked a lot about what's broken about how we work today and how that bicycle shop was sort of the antithesis of where capitalism was going.
[00:17:40] Speaker A: Absolutely. There's work for work's sake and there's work for money's sake. And at its extreme, work because you love what you do, is very much in contrast to work that you do only because the reward you get for it. At its extreme late stage capitalism, gig economy, hyper capitalism, is no longer about what one of the things that made life meaningful for people was work that they cared about, meaningful work.
I don't think humans cannot work.
I think it's built into us to strive to achieve, to have challenges, to confront those challenges, to go over them. When people wax lyrically about Elon Musk waxes lyrical about a universal basic income and computers will do everything for us, I don't know that there's any evidence that people like to be idle.
And I've seen that in refugee camps in outback towns in Australia amongst the quote, idle rich.
I've not seen and I've seen it in individual people. I've seen it people who are busy and then people had a reason not to be busy.
And while things technically got better in terms of money and lifestyle, they weren't happier here.
I'm not advocating anyone has a shit job. I'm not advocating anyone who works in a coal mine. I'm not advocating anyone has to be a street worker to get by. I'm just saying I think that there's something about meaningful work that is baked into human beings and I think is strong throughout our history.
And I think the stuff I was writing about in France, the origins of the guilds and excellence in work was all about that. Clearly you could tell I could talk all night about this and I really believe in it. But I think it's a really important thing as we move into a world where, where perhaps some of the more meaningful tasks will be done by AI, as people say, AI can write books and music, but I Still have to do the washing up. Can't AI do the washing up so I can write books and music?
It'll be a real bummer if AI takes away a lot of the meaningful work and leaves us doing shit work in what's going on in the future.
[00:20:42] Speaker B: Although I would say that some of the shit work is meditative and it helps me with my meaningful work.
That's my little theory.
[00:20:52] Speaker A: 100%. 100%.
So just after I moved to Switzerland, after I'd been in France, just after I met you, I was in the little house that I rented, and it was just me and the girls living in this house.
And I had a friend from Australia, but they were living in Geneva, who said they were going to come and visit. And it was Sunday night, end of the weekend.
It had been a weekend of kids and movies and cooking. There were dishes everywhere. There were clothes everywhere. And they were now going to arrive on Sunday night, not Monday, because of work or whatever. And I had to clean the place.
And I was this. I'm exhausted.
So I said to myself, what about if I clean this place so well that it feels fantastic to do this? So I cleaned the house.
I remember in the kitchen. I cleaned the kitchen, cleaned everything up. I got the dishes. I dried the. I put the dishes away, and then I wipe the bench with that. Then I got another cloth and I sponge and I wiped the bench. And then I got, like, a paper towel. I did the third wipe of the bench, and the kitchen was shining. And I felt fantastic about that process. Right. Of doing that work. Perhaps I need to adjust the metaphor I used before.
I just mean that I was really saying that. I hope AI leaves us with more creative work as well as the work that you do, because it gets you into flow state. It grounds you. It gets you. I cleaned that house. I felt so good about what I did because I decided to do it in an excellent way.
My friends arrived.
They were tired.
They didn't say anything about the house being perfectly clean. And they went to bed, and I was like, okay, so I'm not. I'm not gonna. I'm. I'm not gonna do. There's a type of work you do where you don't do it for external reward.
You do it for how it is for you. For me to get the energy to clean the house, to do that took a lot. I felt good about it.
But you're not in the business of getting external reward for that work.
[00:23:22] Speaker B: I think I met that friend. I'm sure he was close enough where he probably said, hey, can't you tell? This place looks great. And I did it all myself.
No, no, you didn't do it.
[00:23:32] Speaker A: No.
[00:23:33] Speaker B: Okay. Because I remember in those days you were, you, you. We started going to Davos. It was 2012. That's when I met you. What do people there get wrong?
[00:23:42] Speaker A: Yeah. Actually the funny answer to that is a lot less than people think.
They actually get so much more right than the world thinks.
But because what is reported is the ridiculous parts, then you're always looking at that.
I'll tell you what they do get wrong and I'll tell this to you from my personal experience there.
It goes back to what I said about being chief convener. If you don't intentionally pack a room with a cross section of human beings, you will not get a conversation that reflects the experience of human beings.
And that also means someone who runs a NGO with a budget of $6 billion is not necessarily going to be able to speak to one of their customers.
If he's been working in an office in New York City earning seven figures, he will not know. Right.
So I think what they get wrong is they didn't stack the room with a. A real cross section.
I was once called in a session about the future of Africa.
I was once called by the African moderator the most African guy in the room.
How did I get to be the most African guy in the room? I felt a responsibility to speak up for the people who weren't in the room and to talk about challenges that I'd seen in remote locations, in refugee camps, in places. But I should never qualify as the most African person in the room. It's actually still on the Internet where that host from CNN calls me the most African man in the room. The point is that we create dialogue in all parts of society that leave out the people who are actually impacted by it. And we have politicians talking policy in America, social impact investors doing things in Australia.
And we have, you know, really good people doing, trying to do really good work in Australia, but the people who it impacts are not in the room. And I think that's, that's the big thing. I won't listen. I'll hold my hand up and say, we got Muhammad Hussain Mohammed from Kakama refugee camp to become one of the co chairs of Davos Davos In 2018, we got a guy out of a refugee camp to sit alongside the CEO of Microsoft, et cetera, as a co chair of Davos. And I'm proud of that to the end of my days. We Got him there.
A remarkable man. And the forum did the best they could. But I think it's, I think because people don't realize how important that is, because they think someone else can talk on these people's account or because we think we can have an economic discussion.
We talked about trickle down economics for 47 years before somebody stood up and said, you know, it doesn't trickle down. Hello, I'm down here. There's no such thing as trickle down economics. It does not work.
It took us that long to go and we ran neoliberal economic policies and we thought we're doing the right thing, but we weren't listening. We weren't listening to the people that we thought had, were in some sort of beneficial relationship to what we're doing. So yes, Davos actually does a lot more than people know.
The bad shit gets picked up more in the media.
But really, if you had to put me on the spot, say where they don't do well, they don't have enough of the bottom 50%, 60%, 80% of the planet in the room, how would
[00:28:20] Speaker B: you pick those people? I guess it would just be a random sampling or the leaders in their communities.
[00:28:25] Speaker A: Perhaps that's what people say.
It's easy to know who's good in banking of America because The guy's on $11.3 million a year and he's run four different banks and we should put him in the room and he should talk about banking and you tell them banking is banking, banking, banking.
Well, I could find you in an afternoon six amazing people who can talk about the impacts of the non banked humans on this planet, which is like 30% of the planet is non banked and what it would mean if we had different banking structures and do for that. And yeah, if you just want to talk about how to build banks and get bigger banks and everyone do that. It's not as hard. You have to get a little dirty, you have to get on the streets, you have to have a reasonably good radar for bs.
So someone is spinning your story, but they're out there. There are incredible people out there, incredible skills and intelligence is not something that wealthy countries have a monopoly on. Any of us that have read anything from some monk stuck halfway up a hill who ate rice all their life and wore wooden shoes will tell you he didn't have to have a laptop and a computer and a nice car to be really wise.
And so there are so many smart, wise, thoughtful people out there in the world.
You just have to get yourself a little Dirty and go and walk up a hill every now and then.
[00:30:07] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, I remember in Gstad, you used to connect with all the locals. I was at the Sonde at the Landhaus, and there was a waitress there who said, oh, yes, I remember you with Mr. Holmes court. And how's he doing? I'm like, well, he's in Africa somewhere. I haven't talked to him recently. But they remember you because he used to talk to regular people.
[00:30:26] Speaker A: I'm very fortunate the way that I was brought up with my mother and my father, who are quite extraordinary people.
My father long since passed, my mother, incredibly strong, vibrant person. To this day, I feel very fortunate I was brought up that way. In Australia, we eat like the street food, what people call street food these days. Street food we eat is a meat pie. So it was like a pastry with some beef mints and a top on it.
And, you know, my dad used to eat a meat pie from this guy who would sell it out of a little stand in a little walkway between the garage and his office underground.
I remember that guy came to my dad's funeral, you know, and had a story about my dad. It's the way that I was brought up, and I feel very fortunate for it.
And I think in that regard, I'm a product of my parents showing me that there was value in everyone who you could get a chance to talk to.
[00:31:36] Speaker B: It's a nice legacy, values thing that you inherited from your parents.
[00:31:42] Speaker A: It's also like, as a parent, is it close to the ultimate protection you can give your kids?
Right?
To give your kids to be grounded and to be able to see the value in anyone they meet. First of all, they might end up on the bones of their ass on the street. They might blow it all. They might have a substance problem, they might get into trouble, they might get sacked.
So they certainly need to know all stratas of society. I just feel like it's the.
It's the ultimate way to ground your. Your kids through their relationship and understanding of the humanity and benefit in.
In anyone they might meet or spend time with.
[00:32:33] Speaker B: You left Kstad for Nairobi.
Do you have an explanation for that? All of a sudden, you disappeared. Peter. We're like, where the hell did he go?
[00:32:42] Speaker A: Yeah, it's not a really good explanation.
[00:32:45] Speaker B: Okay, well, you don't have to go there if you don't want to.
[00:32:48] Speaker A: I'm happy to go there, and I'll stand up for this any day.
So shortly after there, right before I got married, second time, dressed up.
Gin and tonic in Hand in Zimbabwe at Victoria Falls wedding party.
Everyone dressed and looking fantastic. Our little tourist train got hit by a freight train that didn't stop at some light at some point.
[00:33:29] Speaker B: So
[00:33:32] Speaker A: I was in a train wreck.
We lost a dear friend. We had 20 other people in hospital.
I got a few things that still bother me to this day.
Whenever I'm in a meeting and someone says, oh, my God, that was a total train smash. I was train wreck of a meeting. I'm like, no, it wasn't. I know what a train wreck is. There's nothing like that. It is so much worse than the fact that the client couldn't open the PDF we sent him. Okay, that's not a. That's not a bad. That's not a train wreck. Okay. You know, trauma is an interesting thing.
I've had a couple of episodes of pretty serious trauma in my life.
And there's no hierarchy of trauma. There's no, you know, this was worse than that. It's all how people not only react to it, how they were prepared for it, and also what they do about it.
So anyway, train wreck was living in New York City. Shortly before that, Go back to New York City and every subway sounds like a screeching brakes of a freight train. I was like, those brakes killed me. And then every morning the garbage truck went around in New York City and they have that scooper at the back and it pulls in the stuff and you're like, this is. So I had to get out and for a complete break, my ex and I ended up in Nairobi and sort of threw myself mostly into humanitarian work. My capacity to do communication for, you know, it helped some of the major UN agencies on strategic communication. But it was kind of helpful. It was a really nice way to deal with some of the trauma and the tough stuff. I think helping others is a really good thing when you've got some shit you're going through. And so to end up here, which is not a hardship posting, by the way. I live in the place in the world with the best climate I am. You know, they've got a coastline, they've got parks, they've got mountains, they've got desert adventures.
I live in a beautiful part of the world and I wouldn't.
I don't intend to leave because now with what I'm doing at Africa House, with the art and the quality of what's going on here at the moment, I have an extraordinary life. I didn't come here an easy way, and I didn't choose it out of a bucket List of places to be. I chose it because we were dealing with some serious stuff and this seemed like a good place. And it's turned out to be a fantastic place. So I feel very fortunate in that way.
[00:36:35] Speaker B: Wow. You've been through a lot since I last saw you. What did you learn in France, though, that you built into Africa House?
[00:36:42] Speaker A: Okay, so can I tell you a kind of funny story? So I go to France.
I take my twin girls. They're seven years old. We go to a local primary school.
I take my girls in. They don't speak a word of French. They're in a French class. The teacher can speak a bit of English. They end up loving their experience there, and I end up loving my experience there's.
And the teacher, Celine Jacques, says at the end of the term, like, I think you kind of have to leave because, you know, you don't really speak the language and they hardly do, and, you know, you should see if you get a better education somewhere.
She was adorable.
I said, okay, I'll do that. But she said, before you go, would you tell the people who live here in this town what your perspective is on this part of the world, having lived all over the world and having done all these amazing things? Peter, would you tell them? Because they might like to hear it from someone from the outside that actually, some things here are pretty good. So on my last day in France, I rented the Salle de Fete in Jisou. I put up posters, I printed them out, I put them on notice boards, and I put them in people's mailboxes. And I invited everyone that I'd met, plus everyone else in town, to the Salle de Fe.
240 people turned up, and I did a PowerPoint and spoke in French, which I did by sort of learning it mostly phonetically and being able to say it. I did a PowerPoint on you see here, and how amazing some of the things were.
At the end of the night, a guy came up to me and with someone who was helping me translate, said, thank you for letting me see for the first time how wonderful where I am is. And he was a farmer, and he cried.
I forgot what he made. He made. He was a farmer, but he also had this side Gigan making this special honey, which had healing. I probably did. He's. Anyway, if there's anything that I can do, it's use my perspective, use my experience to highlight what's going on in a particular place and whether it was some of those special parts of the towns that we lived in in Switzerland, or, or whether it's in France or whether it's in Nairobi, where there is an artistic explosion in art and music and the other creative fields, which is just amazing.
If I can use some of my experience to say no, I've been a lot of places. I'm telling you, this is amazing.
This is worth supporting. He is worth getting behind. She is an incredible artist. Absolutely.
The reality is I grew up in Australia. I don't live there. I will be an outsider.
As you know, I'm a little bit of an acquired taste and a little bit unusual and difficult. So I'm going to be an outsider.
But if I can use that, if I can use that outsider position to support others who are doing amazing things, that seems like a really rewarding thing to do.
[00:40:19] Speaker B: Yeah, because you're a convener, but you also are able to like light up what's beautiful and where you are.
[00:40:26] Speaker A: I used to say, you know, you started this by talking about the shows I produced. We did like 30 different shows in 300 cities around the world. I used to think of myself as the guy shining the spotlight on the stage, on the actor on the stage. I didn't actually do that. I like, I made the posters, I printed posters, I rented the theater. I did a lot of stuff. I produced like that way. But that's kind of what I thought I was. If I could take my ability to take the spotlight and put it on people so that others could see either the excellence of that person or the humanity of that person or the connection they could have with that person. I'm not the best at anything, but if I can use some of that experience to highlight other people, then that's the best that I can do with my.
Call it privilege or the opportunities I've had in my life.
[00:41:34] Speaker B: So you say art is thriving in Kenya now and you have art safaris.
[00:41:40] Speaker A: I just did a three country art safari with some collectors out of the U.S. in a way, that's the continuation of this process. If I can shine my light on some incredible creatives over here and connect them to buyers from a country where those artists can't even get a visa. Right. So those artists are collected by major institutions in the U.S. but the artists can't even get a visa to go to those countries.
So I get a chance to show African art to the world again, I'm using my privilege, using my opportunity, but I can literally point to it and I can say with authority or some degree of authority, a certain degree of experience.
This is world class.
And this is where it comes from. And this is how you can understand it and this is how you can enjoy it. And so, yeah, so I also. There's something deeply problematic about people coming to Africa only to see the animals. If you've looked, there's a whole bunch of other shit going on here besides the animals. And it's in contemporary culture and it's in traditional cultures. So to come here to only look at the animals doesn't make any sense. And there is so much incredible stuff happening in Africa at the moment that I.
And I get to do that as like my job and my passion. That's pretty fantastic.
[00:43:12] Speaker B: You say most photos of Africa were taken by people who flew in and then flew out. Like, what did they do wrong?
[00:43:18] Speaker A: I don't think the people did anything wrong.
And I want to take that, I want to be very precise because I've been that person.
What?
It's almost like the question you asked me about Davos.
It's not that they did anything wrong, it's just the structure was such that they. And I'm talking about people like me because I've taken photographs in a dozen African countries, a number of which have been published.
And I realize that a local would take a different photograph.
I was doing it for a Western media outlet with a Western eye to that place, only spending a number of days there.
It's a very different thing if you live in country, if you are spending time with the people, if you don't change the photograph by the fact that you are a large, foreign looking human being.
And I remember taking photographs in Congo, in drc, I remember taking photographs of survivors of the worst sexual violence you could imagine.
And I remember walking into the room with, by the way, that same large camera that I worked in France with, and I saw every woman in the room get slightly more demure.
These women had survived the worst sexual violence and they were laughing before I came in because they were survivors and they were trying to bond and heal and go forward. I would come in the room and they would become more demure. And then the soldiers at the door who had the guns would pull their guns up and look even more fierce. So what are the pictures that I got out of Africa at that time to publish? Fierce men with guns and demure women. Actually, the women were survivors with the most inspiring.
You know, if you knew half of the things that happened to them, you would cry. And yet there they were, standing up, telling jokes, getting their lives back together, moving on, you know, talking back to each other, banter that wasn't seen or heard in my photographs because they were reacting to me as an outside observer. A photographer who lived in the country, who was there, who was around them, would have a different experience.
[00:45:52] Speaker B: So
[00:45:55] Speaker A: this next show that we're doing, Black and Black, which is because this year we celebrate 200 years since the invention of photography. We're really asking what will the next 200 years look like when more Africans hold the camera? And I think that's an incredibly exciting project. I'm really, really looking forward to it.
[00:46:16] Speaker B: So it starts in November, end of November. What's that going to look like?
[00:46:19] Speaker A: Well, actually, I have something like thousand photographs to look at on Wednesday and two days from now.
The reason I'm not the curator of the show, I am the originating producer. Again, it's my job to turn the spotlight. I've got a young, fabulous curator, and I'm African curator, and I'm assisting her on making the decisions. So I'm just literally a sounding board for her as she goes through. Because it's a daunting task when you've got hundreds of applications and people send in 15 to 30 photographs. It's.
It's daunting.
But how do you get down to people whose practice gives them ability to show Africa as it is? We're not saying to be an African photographer, you have to be born here to be black or to be from a tribe. Maybe if you've been working in Africa for a long period of time and you're from California and you really have a really great practice, there's a South African photographer. I'm thinking when I say this, a really good one. Maybe he's an African photographer. Maybe he's an African photographer. Maybe he has a way of looking at it. But he didn't just fly in. He lives here, he works here. And that's the type of way that we are looking at it differently and seeing different photographs as a result. So, anyway, that's the next thing I'm working on.
[00:47:41] Speaker B: It's all African photographs made by Kenyan artists, right?
[00:47:45] Speaker A: African photographs made by Africans from all over the continent. But we're not.
But we're not defining what an African photographer is.
So a person born in Rwanda, who's lived in Belgium all their life, who takes photographs of lipstick, are they an African photographer?
One who has been here for 50 years working with deep knowledge and has followed a particular group, they seem like regardless where they come from. So it's Africa as a practice, not Africa is a free card you get in any way. So it's what is an African photography practice? We know that a person can move to a country and really add value, even though they weren't born there or they're not the same color as people there. There are people that will represent Australia in the next Olympics who will be born in South Sudan.
They're as Australian as they get. A country will rally around them. What I'm really saying is it's the practice that photographs Africa differently.
Not fly in, fly out.
Not using the privilege opposition. Really understanding how Africa is and presenting Africa for Africans. Not presenting Africa to illustrate a story that's already been written or for an editor who already has an idea what the story should be. What happens if the images that come out are authentic and there are not predetermined by editors along the way?
[00:49:21] Speaker B: Yeah. So how do you make sure that Africa House serves the artists, but doesn't just use them? Okay, sorry, I just had to ask that. Sorry. Big sign.
[00:49:31] Speaker A: I think that's a great question. I think that's a great question. I struggle with it because anytime you have to enter into an economic relationship with a person to do something, there is potential for exploitation because the natural power structures at the beginning of that relationship can be out of whack. So that might carry on to how the relationship and my power structure is. I own this building. Their situation is, I paint a few pictures.
That's a different thing.
Now, there are artists who sell pictures.
There's four artists in Kenya who sell pictures, each one worth more than my entire house. So there's a different level up here, which is another power structure. But let me be really clear.
If we attempt to replicate gallery structures that come out of the west onto Africans, which is basically, I own you for the rest of your life in return for half the value of your work, I believe that's exploitative. I've got a radically different business structure with my artists because I think that structure worked when you had a gallery in Chelsea where you could get a museum to buy their pieces. When you had 10 squillionaires who would buy their pieces on opening night. We don't have that here. So I think I need to radically change my relationship with my artists or it will be exploitative.
And that's maybe very unpopular because there's a lot of galleries that do very well with a traditional structure. And they don't like a person like me saying that I'm not doing it because it might be considered exploitative.
So I don't like that.
But as I said, I'm an Acquired taste. And I hope that what I'm doing is the right thing.
I think I have a model which is not exploitative and really works without us. I hope so.
[00:51:38] Speaker B: Can you tell us what it looks like, the model?
[00:51:41] Speaker A: It's so different for each artist and I think that's what makes it work.
One size fits all tends to be what fits the powerful person. Right. So everything should be the same because it's good for me.
No, everything should be exactly what fits the individual relationship. And so it's everything from a 5050 split to an 8020 split. It's everything from, hey, nothing. If I help you out, I. I help you out, you're a mate.
It really is that broad. And I know there are people I don't want to do the, hey, if it works out, why don't you give me something? Because it doesn't make any sense and there's others that will take a lot of my time, that I have to have a different deal because that's what rewards me for my time.
[00:52:34] Speaker B: So anyway, yeah, your bullshit detector is really important in this case.
[00:52:38] Speaker A: I'm not sure I'm there yet, mate, but I'm trying the best I can. So thank you very much.
[00:52:44] Speaker B: Well, in your ted talk, your TEDx talk, you talk about GDP is the wrong scorecard. What would you count? Instead?
[00:52:51] Speaker A: We go back to that, right? So of course, gross domestic product, just the total that a country makes and the quote, growth in that. Of course, that's not the right methodology. And RFK senior said it in 68, it counts everything but what makes life meaningful.
So we know this for a long time. We haven't come up with a different measure. So when someone says, in the government we're growing, everyone goes, good. Growth is good, right? Surely growth is good. Plants grow, I grow, my kids grow.
So it can't be the measure. Now, I also don't consider myself the person whose job is to solve this. My job specifically on that talk and in that area is to point out that what we're doing is following a false prophet and we must stop doing that and move on to a more meaningful measure of how our society works and should be measured and should hold politicians, too. Now, a lot of politicians around the world have found a new way of talking about that. Affordability, universal healthcare, proper education.
Those don't have a simple tick box. But it does seem like people kind of respond well to that, right? They do respond well to affordable healthcare. They do seem to respond well to good schooling. They do seem to respond to safety on their streets. Those are not ones you can say is a growth number.
They're a blended measure in terms of what people enjoy. And people have come up with systems to look at this. Kate Raworth's Donut Economics and others have come up with measures to do this. But long story short, my job in this communication program is to say growth, gdp, simple percentages, averages mean absolutely nothing. And you all know that. It's about time we started holding our politicians accountable to something different.
[00:55:12] Speaker B: Behind you, there's a photograph and two photographs. Are those yours?
[00:55:17] Speaker A: Kenyan collective called 199X and they work as a team. Four guys from the country moved to Nairobi. Very sharp eye in fashion and similar photography. And then this one behind me here is by a photographer called Mori, who's a Sudanese photographer who photographs in Sudan even though there's a war going on and. And who creates beautiful images in a war. Now, the demand for photographs when there's a war on is for people suffering and for people, you know, shooting each other and looking scary.
What if the people there are actually living their lives? What if they're taking the bedsheets, wrapping the bed sheets around themselves and taking, you know, beautiful, poignant photographs? And I think I attribute Mori just more than anywhere else. We did an exhibition of his about 12 months ago. I can attribute him to changing my understanding of how a country can be seen by people who are living in the country at a time when the predominant images coming out are of a very different nature. And so, yeah, I'm hugely proud of being involved in that show and of his work, and he'll be part of Black and Black when we have it up in November. So thank you very much for drawing attention to them. If you can use this podcast to make anyone outside Africa see that we have some extraordinary photographers here and artists here. If you can do that with your little platform, then you've done well today. Thank you very much.
[00:57:09] Speaker B: Nice. So people can find
[email protected] It's Africa,
[00:57:14] Speaker A: spelled with a K. House.
It's Africa Housekenya. On Instagram, I'm always Peter Hack P E T H A C on all the platforms.
And, yeah, if you want to find us and understand or. Or want to come to Africa to see art or want to look at our artists. I just. I love sharing the work.
We have a gallery here named after your mother. Yeah, I'm glad you said that. I got to say that I'm glad you said that because it is my name as well.
[00:57:48] Speaker B: But her saying is on the wall. Art is nice.
[00:57:51] Speaker A: Exactly. Exactly.
So it's my mom.
And just like she did for. For Australian Aboriginal artists, just like she lent her name and her credibility and has done incredible things for Australian Aboriginal art, she encouraged me to use my name if it could help African artists who could bring profile to African artists that otherwise wouldn't have it and give a stamp of credibility or approval, whatever. And so as weird as I feel it is to have my name on the wall, I just say it's my
[00:58:29] Speaker B: mom's name and people can get your book on Amazon. Riding with Giants.
[00:58:33] Speaker A: Riding with Giants. And if they. A lot of people have sleeping problems these days, so if they want an easy way to fall asleep, they can just get the audible version, which has me reading it, and they'll be asleep in no time at all. I promise you it's going to solve any of the insomnia problems that people have. I just wanted to say thank you very much again, giving me a chance to tell my story. I'm very proud of the work that I do and the people I represent. And it's a public holiday here in Kenya today. Today is our Heroes Day, which is celebrating the people who fought for the independence of Kenya. On Hero's Day, I came into the office to make this call and I'm very happy that I was able to do it with you today and make it fit in.
So thank you very much.
[00:59:20] Speaker B: You're welcome. Peter, it's great to see you again. Thank you for coming out.
[00:59:24] Speaker A: Pleasure.
[00:59:27] Speaker B: If this episode landed for you, share it with someone who might need to hear it and click Follow or subscribe on whatever platform. You're listening to this so you don't miss what's coming because whether we have everything, nothing or something in between, we all face pressure.
The question is what we do with it. So this week, look around your community and see where you can be of service.
Thanks for listening.
