Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: You always have an opportunity to grow. You always have an opportunity to follow up. You can't be unrealistic about your physical limitations or other things, but you can always keep growing, keep being open to the universe. Keep being furious.
[00:00:16] Speaker B: I'm Diana Earley, and I've spent most of my life learning firsthand what privilege actually costs.
The legacy control, the family expectations, the guilt of feeling trapped in a life everyone thinks you should be grateful for. If you've ever wondered why having everything still feels like something's missing, you're in the right place.
Welcome to Pressures of Privilege.
My guest today has spent more than 40 years sitting with families in their hardest moments. Dr. Louise Stanger is a nationally recognized interventionist, a licensed clinical social worker, and the founder of all about interventions.
McLean Hospital, a Harvard affiliate, named her Interventionist of the year in 2024. She won a lifetime achievement award. She's written six books, including her newest, Trauma Is yous Superpower. She's been featured in Forbes, cnn, the New York Times, and more.
But here's what pulled me to her. Louise built two whole ways of helping families heal, and she built them the hard way. She calls herself a third generation widow. She's lived through six sudden deaths, and instead of letting that close her down, she let it crack her open. Her whole philosophy fits in three words keep falling up. Louise, welcome to the show.
[00:01:41] Speaker A: Thank you. It's such an honor to be with you today.
California and Rhode island, is that correct?
[00:01:48] Speaker B: Actually, today I'm in Brookline.
[00:01:51] Speaker A: Oh, okay. But you're. We're on east and West Coast. So honored to be with you today.
[00:01:55] Speaker B: Well, thank you. I'm close to your Harvard, the McLean Hospital.
You know, I loved your website. I. I came across it at one point, and I was like, wow, she really understands interventions. And I. I did some training with Arise Interventions. I don't know if you're familiar.
[00:02:12] Speaker A: Judith Landau.
[00:02:13] Speaker B: Judith Jamdow.
[00:02:15] Speaker A: Yeah, sure.
[00:02:16] Speaker B: So I'm always fascinated by interventions and interventionists and the work that they do.
[00:02:21] Speaker A: I think it's just an invitation to change.
And a long time ago, I think it was Verne Johnson, who's the granddaddy of interventions, that somehow or other they turn this word intervention as if it's an event, and it's really just a process.
And people always said, well, I want to learn how to be an interventionist. I said, well, you need to learn how to invite some to change. And it's not just a one stop.
We're meeting together in a circle, and then everybody goes away.
And one Person goes to treatment.
That's not exactly the way it works, but he did a great job. Judith developed the ARISE program, which is obviously well known and well respected, but as a former professor, I see it as an invitation to change. And we're always asking, inviting people to change.
This is one part of a process.
[00:03:25] Speaker B: But people who are in the depths of addiction don't always.
Do they want to change?
[00:03:31] Speaker A: Well, the people around, do they want to change? That's a great question. Does anybody ever really want to change?
Think about, like, you have to give up some type of food. Did you really want to give up that food? Did you really want to do that? Do you really want to go to exercise three times or four times a week?
So if you're in the throes of an addiction, which is both a mental health and a substance use thing, you're having a love affair.
It's just an unhealthy love affair. And. And so the idea of intervention is you're helping someone give up that love affair for something different.
And sometimes we can't see whether it's substance use or that we're doing something that's harmful.
And so we need others around us to help us see the truth.
Yes. See the truth or help us motivate us to change.
I don't think everybody who says yes at an intervention has a big aha moment. They know they're hurting.
And maybe there's a better solution because
[00:04:44] Speaker B: you don't believe people have to hit rock bottom.
[00:04:47] Speaker A: No, if you hit rock bottom, you're dead.
Okay, that's an old, old way of looking at it. But you're coming, developing a false bottom, a different bottom.
Otherwise you'd never have any clients, you'd never be able to help anybody. They'll be dead.
[00:05:06] Speaker B: Oh, God, so scary. Especially today with the drugs out there like Fentanyl, that, you know they're dangerous.
[00:05:12] Speaker A: I mean, but. But rock bottom, it might mean that you lost your job, you lost your wife, you lost your kids, you went to jail, you had a traffic ticket. It means that there has been a negative consequence.
Just think about you violated your own self. So that's probably, number one, you've upset someone else. Otherwise, no one would call an interventionist. If you had upset someone else, you could have lost your job, lost your wife, your child doesn't talk to you, or you flunk out of school. So there is a confluence, because the person who's asked for the intervention has to have experienced a bunch of things before they actually understand that they need a Higher level of care. They need a higher level of help.
[00:06:03] Speaker B: Yeah, so you said. Sometimes self abandonment is the quietest addiction of all.
Can you say more about that?
[00:06:11] Speaker A: Well, you violated yourself. Just think about it, Diane. You have a special way of looking at yourself. I have a special way. But if I lie to myself and say, oh, I can just have another drink, I can have another gabapentin, I can have another Demerol shot, I can never purchase that, you know, they don't bother me, or, it doesn't matter, I can take this money and they're never going to find it. So you're violating your own ethics.
[00:06:40] Speaker B: I also see that as perhaps in a codependent relationship.
[00:06:44] Speaker A: So codependency.
Let me see if the easiest way I can explain that is somebody is always trying to bail you out, and that's. And you end up in a relationship where they'll do everything for you and you don't have to take responsibility.
That might be an easy way to look at a complex subject, because the person has, like, they begged, they borrowed, they steal, they cajole you, and you still don't do anything. And they still let you go around doing what you're doing. So that's what we think of as a codependent relationship.
[00:07:26] Speaker B: And the person who's doing all the cajoling and the paying for everything, they're abandoning themselves while they're doing that.
[00:07:34] Speaker A: Everybody's abandoning themselves. They are, too. Like, they're going, oh, there's a famous line, wait till tomorrow.
You know, things will get better. He will go to school, she will do what she needs to do. So I'm just going to wait for tomorrow. Because the enormity of the situation is so great that your brain operates on denial.
[00:07:59] Speaker B: So it's better not to wait till tomorrow?
[00:08:01] Speaker A: No, it's better not to wait till tomorrow.
It's better to act now.
And it takes a great deal of courage to act.
[00:08:10] Speaker B: So if you have a family member, you're worried about who you suspect could be using, but you're not sure, what should you do?
[00:08:20] Speaker A: You try to figure out, because you go, last night, you didn't come home, everything was a mess, There were pills.
I feel worried and scared and let's go do something about it.
[00:08:34] Speaker B: Yeah, it's hard to find proof sometimes that somebody's really using.
[00:08:38] Speaker A: But, you know, in terms of, like, they got in trouble at work, their friends don't talk to them, they lost their boyfriend, they lost their. There are signs.
And then there's also the sign that you have well, it can't be that bad.
They'll just get it together.
[00:08:55] Speaker B: Mm, so scary. Tell me about your type of. Like I know about Arise.
Now, your type of interventions, how do they work?
[00:09:04] Speaker A: They're invitational in the same way that maybe arise is a person calls you up and they're worried about X. So I spend 20 minutes complimentary with them, learning about what they're worried about and then see if I'm the best person to help them. If I'm not, I will refer them elsewhere. If I think I can help them, we can talk about what the process is. I can do 10 hours of coaching with them and see where that takes. Or we could engage in a full blown intervention. Not everybody want to do an intervention on X or Y or Z.
So you have to.
There's an old social work adage, you have to start where your client is and then go from there.
You know, rarely does someone call you up. They say they're worried about Joe or Sally or Maggie, but really just I just calling you because I need an intervention.
They're scared. They don't know what to do. And so you help them explore what the next best steps are.
And I guess the only thing different about me is I do not do interventions alone.
I think that's arrogant and foolhardy.
I always use another equally talented person.
I don't consider myself top dog. And they're underdog because what if the person's 20 years old? The 20 year old's not gonna like me. The parents will love me.
And so you have to really, you have to do good matching. Then you also, in addition to that, you have to be really aware what good treatment is. And you have to be able to refer that family to three facilities.
And you have to also know what they can afford because not all treatment is equal, not all insurances cover everything.
So there's a lot of due diligence that has to be done. And if you are going to do an intervention, you pick a date, a time, you. I interview everybody individually, so I don't just put a group together. I mean, let me think. Ed Storey is a great interventionist. He always just puts a group together. I still not learn. Heck, I interview everybody individually, so I have rapport with them. I know what they're going to say.
Letter writing can oftentimes be a part of it because you want to know what someone's going to say. And it's. It's easy. It's heart hurt and hope.
You know, Diane, I'm here today because I love you and I care about you, and my heart is hurting.
Yesterday when you didn't show up at the studio, we all were scared. And then we realized we went to visit you at home and you're passed out.
You know that.
Actual examples.
And, you know, my hope is today that I can offer you a solution.
We found the wonderful healing facility for you, and we want you to go. I mean, that's hard. Hurt and hope in quick form.
[00:12:16] Speaker B: Yeah, I felt it even though it was fictional.
[00:12:18] Speaker A: I was like, oh, yeah.
But you have to join up and you have to, you know, and you have to break into that honeycomb of denial. Like, I remember when. I remember when we were in high school together and we used to do all these silly, silly things and, oh, my God, do you remember the time we got caught? Whatever it is, I need to. The people need to be breaking to your honeycomb of denial.
[00:12:44] Speaker B: Honeycomb of denial. That's a cool expression.
[00:12:47] Speaker A: Thank you.
[00:12:49] Speaker B: Did you make that up?
[00:12:50] Speaker A: Yes, it's mine.
[00:12:52] Speaker B: Because denial is so complex, isn't it?
I had a therapist once who told me that denial is our body's way of protecting ourselves against the truth.
[00:13:03] Speaker A: Think about a sudden death, you know, you go, oh, no, this can't be true. You actually have the phone that you can call and hear the voicemail. So denial in the beginning comes into play to protect us. Denial run ragged is what happens when all the warning signs are gone. So it's not working.
[00:13:29] Speaker B: Does denial slowly open like the truth finally?
[00:13:34] Speaker A: That's your job. That's my job. That's everybody in the room's job is to help open the honeycomb. And denial with. Do you remember when I love you and I care about you? You're my most special friend. We went to college together, we went to high school together. We got married, we got divorced together, whatever it is.
And last week when I came to pick you up and you were just sitting in the chair, you couldn't move because you had passed out in the bottle.
The bottle was right next door to you. I felt scared. So you're breaking into that denial system with objective facts, but you're not yelling and screaming.
[00:14:20] Speaker B: Yeah, there's love behind that.
So when you do find facilities for them that are in their budget, by the way, do you think the more expensive a place is, the better it is?
[00:14:32] Speaker A: No, it's not. No, No. I mean, there's great places you can get that are low cost. It's really what matches the client.
I mean, there's a lot. Probably more bells and whistles.
At a super expensive facility.
You know, acupuncture, sound bath, et cetera, et cetera. But you can get sober at the Salvation army, for God's sakes.
[00:14:58] Speaker B: I like that.
[00:14:58] Speaker A: And I've had clients do that.
So it just depends on where you are, what you know, you know, what you try and meet the person's needs.
What would they be okay with going to.
[00:15:13] Speaker B: Oh, I think I heard it on your Instagram. You were interviewing somebody who, who is saying that, you know, in some of these treatment facilities, it's so nice that, you know, in some families that have privilege, they, they'll re. They may be more apt to. To relapse because treatment's kind of a treat.
[00:15:30] Speaker A: No, relapse is going to happen to everybody. If you haven't gotten the message and you haven't done the work, I don't care who you are, how rich you are, you will relapse, you know, and the thing is, it's not just going into a treatment facility. It's whether or not they can capture your attention.
Does this. Have I been able to. Listen, you can go to a lot of. I've had people go to six different treatment centers, you know, and they didn't capture their.
It didn't click in the person's head. Have you ever tried to change any behavior of your own? Let me ask you that.
[00:16:09] Speaker B: Yeah, I have. Like, you know. Yes, yes. Which is why I've. I've become like a tiny habits coach. And I really. I really into Dr. Judd Brewer's habit program. Like, I'm constantly trying to establish better habits.
[00:16:23] Speaker A: And so.
Yeah. Did you ever fail at trying to change something? Yeah.
[00:16:28] Speaker B: And also when I finally, like, for me, quitting drinking wasn't difficult, I have to say, but that's because I transferred it from one addiction to another. When that second addiction fell through, that's where I found it very difficult. Like, I was addicted to a boyfriend and I couldn't stop calling him. That's what brought me into 12 step rooms. Cause I thought, oh, God, I. Oh, okay.
[00:16:51] Speaker A: Well, thank you for sharing that. I really appreciate that.
[00:16:54] Speaker B: I just could not stop. I would wake up in the morning and say to myself, I'm not going to call him. I'm not going to call him.
[00:17:00] Speaker A: And the next thing you dial.
Yeah. So that became your obsession, so to speak, and that became your drug of choice.
[00:17:09] Speaker B: Yeah. And I think, I think that's my underlying, you know, addiction, and I think I used alcohol to deal with that underlying one.
But I think once I. The quitting of Alcohol was relatively easy. I didn't crave it afterwards. But you know what, Louise? I lost a ton of weight so I could act out. And the love of.
So it really kind of the. The loss of weight helped me with the other addiction. That makes sense.
[00:17:37] Speaker A: Yes, it does. Thank you for sharing.
[00:17:39] Speaker B: Yeah, you're welcome. Yeah. So it's hard. I totally get that. And that's what I mean. I've heard Dr. Gabor Mate talk about his compulsion to buy CDs, and I'm like, wow. I mean, I.
It's harder for me to believe that one, but.
But I get it. You know, like, it can be any process addiction, right?
[00:17:57] Speaker A: That's right.
[00:17:58] Speaker B: Going back to the inside, wealthy families. When is money a problem?
[00:18:03] Speaker A: Money's a problem when you're always bailed out, when you don't have to experience any consequences, when you can look the other way and you can have a lot covered up.
I've had many wealthy families, and they have maids, they have nannies, they have other people, and they have people that clean up after the person. Or I'll send you to Europe, or I'll send you here, as opposed to doing it. Or families that are just too busy. I mean, think about. I mean, I always rant back to not just wealthy families. Think about the family that has to work, and they're so busy working because they have to own a living that they don't see their children or they don't see their young adult, and they can't. They really don't intervene. I mean, it's a matter of.
And also, well, we want to look good. We don't want anyone else to know anything about our. Our laundry.
[00:19:10] Speaker B: Yeah. So that makes it harder to reach for help. I have a friend going through marital issues, and she's afraid of even asking for a therapist because if. Oh, God forbid, people know that she's
[00:19:21] Speaker A: got some marital issues, that could be the biggest thing. If she's having marital issues, that could be the biggest thing to help her. It could also, you know, help her make a decision. Do I stay? Do I leave?
And seeing. I think you have to see getting help, getting counseling as a gift.
It may not be the Christmas gift or the Kwanzaa gift or Hanukkah. Hanukkah gift you want, but it's the gift you're giving yourself because you're giving yourself a gift of health. And how many of us actually always make the right decisions? We don't.
[00:19:57] Speaker B: There's no perfect decision. Right.
[00:19:59] Speaker A: Yeah.
And it's also like being Able to take a look at yourself and say, I tried ABCD and I can't do it. So I need something else.
[00:20:08] Speaker B: If you listen to Paul Hochmeier, Dr. Paul. And he says people with privilege are actually living isolated.
They're making decisions in a vacuum.
They don't have a bunch of people to talk to about, oh, should I do this or should I do that? They probably keep a lot of that decision making inside.
[00:20:27] Speaker A: Well, that's correct. But how many people bring. You know, I know Paul specializes. I specialize in everybody. I work with a lot of high. Well. And yes, they are isolated, but at the same time, everybody who has an addiction is isolated. So I would argue with Paul. Yes, that's very true. And you know, working with power, privilege, you know, people are afraid of you.
They're afraid to talk to you. They don't want to upset you because you hold the purse strings to their job.
So how am I going to accept the emperor who has no clothes on, really? But if you take a look at it, most people become a vacuum. They become isolated.
Addiction is a very.
And then it's a very isolating event.
[00:21:15] Speaker B: So your listeners here, they look successful on the outside, but feel stuck inside. What do you want them to know?
[00:21:22] Speaker A: That there's always hope, there is always a courage to change, and that help is available.
You know, that there will be someone that they can relate to, that they feel can be it. And if they're willing to take that risk, because I have a big encourage this fear. That said, it's prayer. So I'm not a religious person, but you've got to have courage to do that.
[00:21:46] Speaker B: How does one get courage?
[00:21:50] Speaker A: Maybe by falling off a limb and just saying, okay, how did you get courage, Diana?
You had to have courage.
[00:21:55] Speaker B: Pain.
[00:21:56] Speaker A: Pain.
So pain is a great motivator.
You know, this hurts so bad. I need to try something else.
Or someone comes into my circle, like an interventionist, like a clinician, and says, hey, take my hand.
Let me try and help you.
[00:22:20] Speaker B: Also, there was some weird clarity, like when I finally experienced the pain of. Of this breakup, and I didn't like what was happening. I realized that I had some abandonment issues and I couldn't be alone. And I just, like, wanted that person so badly. And I didn't like that. I really wanted to be without the person intellectually, but physically and emotionally, I really wanted the person.
And that's when I decided, okay, now I'm going to do the work to figure out what's at the bottom of my abandon.
[00:22:51] Speaker A: The minishes yeah.
[00:22:52] Speaker B: And that was, you know, 2012 and that was the beginning of my. The work on myself, you know, where I joined 12 step and when I worked the steps. But I also start. Did it. I've done four trauma workshops.
[00:23:05] Speaker A: Well, that's good because there had to be something in your, in your, in your childhood that those abandonment issues just didn't come from, you know, drinking or that they came from, you know, how you grew up or what happened.
I remember I never liked to say goodbye because so many people died. I was afraid they'd never come back. So if I didn't say goodbye, they'd never have to die. So that was some of my magical thinking. And that had to do with abandonment.
[00:23:36] Speaker B: Ah, interesting.
Yeah, I don't like to say goodbye either. Now to think of it.
[00:23:44] Speaker A: Yeah, take a look at that. Unpack it. You know, it has to do probably with earlier childhood issues, but, you know, if I turn around, will you be here? You know, and then you get hyper vigilant because you really want someone there.
[00:24:00] Speaker B: You know what's interesting? I was just in Japan at this karate, Karate camp.
And after the camp, we stayed in a little ryokan, this beautiful Japanese hotel. And on our last day, we got in the, in, in the, in the taxi. And as we were pulling out away from the hotel, the hotel manager bowed to our car as we left and I just wanted to cry. It was so beautiful.
[00:24:26] Speaker A: I believe it.
That is very special.
[00:24:29] Speaker B: Very, very special.
[00:24:30] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:24:31] Speaker B: But looking back at the goodbyes.
Yeah. When I was two and a half, my mother moved me left. We were living in the Swiss Alps. My father was a Swiss mountain guide and we moved to a castle in the south of France.
And here I am, two and a half years old. My. I'm no longer with my father. And I'm in this, you know, very cold, you know, medieval castle.
[00:24:54] Speaker A: Scary, very scary. Ask them to be scary.
[00:24:57] Speaker B: And my mother was in this new relationship with somebody she was very attached to. And then I soon be ended up with two with twin brothers. I was completely forgotten. Like I, I wandered that castle on my own.
You know, just there were scorpions everywhere, snakes, open bodies of water like these, these towers with no handrails. And I used to wander off into the forest and take naps under trees. And.
And I remember like the caretaker finding me asleep under a pine tree, upset with me because I was bare feet and, and she kept saying, there's snakes here. You shouldn't be bare feet.
[00:25:35] Speaker A: Well, he probably was right, but you probably needed to wander off because you had no one to do it. Think. You know, the great thing is this caretaker, this caretaker probably was in some ways a God shot.
I don't know how else to explain it. That cared for you and. Because the first thing you remember is, wow, there was this caretaker and he became really important in your life.
In my life. After my father died by suicide, I was sent away to camp.
And Mr. Rubenstein, who owned Cam Woedeco, he was a godsend. And I ended up going to that camp all through and became, you know, a camp counselor, but he was the caretaker. And it wasn't in words and deeds and it wasn't in therapy. It was just. It was a safe place.
[00:26:28] Speaker B: I have a few of those. I call them my guardian angels. Yeah. I was raised by a Chinese nanny who's still in our family 50 years later.
[00:26:36] Speaker A: How beautiful. Congratulations.
[00:26:38] Speaker B: Then my father died when I was five and that. That was a huge loss. And.
And I think that, you know, and I didn't. You know what, what I. What drew me to you too is that you, you. You've written about grieving and how important that is and the different types of
[00:26:54] Speaker A: grief, the delayed grief, there are anticipatory grief, all kinds of.
[00:26:59] Speaker B: Yes, that's fascinating.
I never, I didn't cry about my father. I mean, initially I did, but I think then I was medicated so I wouldn't cry so I could sleep. And I don't remember crying.
[00:27:12] Speaker A: You were medicated at age five?
[00:27:15] Speaker B: Yeah, I was living in the south of France in Monaco, and the pediatrician gave us sleepy syrup, so we would sleep at night. Or I would sleep at night.
[00:27:23] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:27:23] Speaker B: And. And so I. When I did my first trauma workshop when I was 43, I cried so much my shirt was wet.
[00:27:30] Speaker A: Oh, yeah. Finally.
[00:27:32] Speaker B: I mean, it was just so cathartic though.
[00:27:34] Speaker A: Oh, that's wonderful. My heart has joy for you to be able to heal.
[00:27:40] Speaker B: You know, I have a family member going through some intense grief right now, and it's reading your book. It was so helpful in realizing that it's actually, you know, they pathologize grief medical community.
[00:27:52] Speaker A: You can always have her give me a call. I won't charge for 20 minutes.
You know, I mean, I don't charge for 20 minutes, but, you know, grief is, is non pathological. If you're not able to grieve your losses, then there, there's things that can happen that become problematic.
[00:28:11] Speaker B: Yeah. Like addiction, right?
[00:28:13] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:28:14] Speaker B: The control.
And those behaviors that are. They would call them codependent type behaviors.
[00:28:21] Speaker A: So I really prefer I mean, I know all those words and everything. I prefer that people describe a behavior than label a behavior like, what is actually happening. What do you see? What is going on? What is the description of it? Because once you put it in that box, it could be. They're very. I look, I can't go to sleep unless I'm with this person. I can't do this with that. That is a mesh relationship. Yes. It can be called codependency, but you have to describe the behavior as if it's walking down the street.
And then you can begin to try to understand.
Because we can only try to understand another person.
[00:29:07] Speaker B: I like that.
Yeah. I also think there's.
People are too. There's too much diagnosis as well. People are like, oh, she's bipolar. Oh, no, no, this is borderline. Oh, no, this is.
And in the end, it could just be trauma or it could just be like some psychosis that's related to a drug. We don't. And they're so quick to dish out diagnoses.
[00:29:32] Speaker A: Agree, but you have to take time to listen, and you have to be able to work with somebody.
I mean, diagnoses are very helpful for insurance companies.
For payment, you need the categories. But then you say, well, what does that look like walking down the street?
Tell me about that.
Can you describe the behavior? If you can describe the behavior, you have a chance of understanding.
[00:30:01] Speaker B: So getting to your. Keep falling up. Where did that phrase come from?
[00:30:06] Speaker A: Oh, my God. I don't even know if I can remember. I have a beautiful big neon sign in my house that says, keep falling up.
Right now. I can't tell you where I found.
But it just became my slogan. Things happen in life. You have things that go wrong, but you've got to keep it going, so to speak.
And keep falling up was my slogan, which is sort of very perfect right now because I took a bad fall the other day.
[00:30:35] Speaker B: Oh, no.
[00:30:36] Speaker A: So my leg is all messed up and now I have to keep falling up. I mean, literally, I took a bad fall. The idea is you can either go down pity path Lane, Martyrdom alley and blame way, or you can take a look and say, and grieve your losses. Must be able to grieve your losses. And then how then do I keep engaging with this world? Because it's really a beautiful world and I may not get everything I want. I may not be able to do everything I want. I may never be the strongest, fastest. But how do I keep falling up? How do I keep engaging in life? How do I keep acknowledging My foibles, the Good, the Bad, and the Ugly.
And so, well, I get. I caught a book that right in the very beginning, so it must have just came to me.
[00:31:31] Speaker B: It's in that book on trauma, which. Where you describe, you know, all of the losses that you had, including your. Your first husband and all the sudden deaths, and it can give you a superpower.
[00:31:43] Speaker A: Well, yeah, I do believe in superpowers, because that's my last book. Trauma is your superpower power. It helps you transform. Now, do I wish trauma on everybody? Absolutely not. But what you do with what you get and how you process it and who you surround yourself with allows you to emerge transformed.
[00:32:03] Speaker B: You started teaching when you were 22, and now you're.
You mind telling us how old are you?
[00:32:09] Speaker A: Oh, no, I'm going to be 80 October 18th, so that's amazing.
That's a long time. And I was very lucky.
I was an English lit major, wrote well for social work. I became a social work master student. And then, I don't know, somehow I got invited to teach.
My. That good mentor, Dr. Hayworth, he said, you can teach. I'm going to give you a class. I walked into a classroom.
I'm sure that everybody looked like they were dragons.
I sweated so much. I walked right out because I said, my name is. And I had nothing to say. And then Dr. Hayward said, no, you go back in.
And that's how that started.
Very blessed.
[00:32:53] Speaker B: Because you've said often that you. You're not done growing, even at 80.
[00:32:59] Speaker A: No, I don't think so. I mean, obviously you get to reconcile stuff, but I think you always have an opportunity to grow.
You always have an opportunity to fall up.
You can't be unrealistic about your physical limitations or other things. But if you can't keep. I don't know, I think you have to. You can always keep growing, keep being open to the universe, keep being curious.
[00:33:27] Speaker B: Because you went back for your doctorate in your late 40s.
[00:33:30] Speaker A: Yes, I did. I did. I went to the University of San Diego and I got my doctoral degree in educational leadership. And, you know, I loved it because my. It was a very eclectic thing. And that's where my dissertation. I was allowed to do it on anything I wanted. And I decided that I wanted to interview widows, young widows around the world, because I had been a young widow. And I never. And that was my way of being able to negotiate that. And my. My professor, which was a full professor in business with Joanna Hunsicker, said, go for it.
So it was a very Very nice university.
[00:34:13] Speaker B: So what would you tell someone who thinks it's too late? You know, I'm 50 years old.
[00:34:17] Speaker A: It's never too late. I mean, I just have a client right now that's starting their graduate. I mean, what's too late? I mean, didn't Grandma. I mean, I'm not 90, a dinkum of Moses paint when she was 90 and become famous? I mean, think about, you know, obviously it's great if you have everything set and all organized and everything, but give yourself an opportunity.
It's never too late.
[00:34:44] Speaker B: That's amazing. And at 80, you're still doing interventions and writing books.
[00:34:50] Speaker A: I'm trying.
We'll see.
It's very hard. I never.
I never had a lot of, like, women things I did, like women's clubs or women's organization. I was always working.
So the biggest thing I've had to learn hitting 80, is how to join some women's groups, which for me was always very scary.
[00:35:12] Speaker B: I agree. I'm the same.
I've always worked or, you know, raised my children. Yeah, yeah. Going back to interventions and the current landscape, the addiction landscape, it has gotten a scarier world, hasn't it?
[00:35:27] Speaker A: Well, I think the drugs. I don't know if it's gotten scarier or more media savvy, but we do have drugs that we haven't had before, you know, like fentanyl and everything. But it's hard to say because we only thought in the beginning there was alcohol, you know, and then there was something cocaine, and then there was something else. But now we have a whole host of drugs that I have never even heard of.
So I think that's the more manufactured, the more synthetic drugs. But the notion of someone being addicted, having compulsive behavior, I'm not too sure that's changed. But I certainly think that so many poor people know about that.
And there's so much enticing you to take me, take me, fix me, fix me.
Yeah.
[00:36:18] Speaker B: With the social media, advent of social media, that's also changed things, probably.
[00:36:23] Speaker A: Yes, definitely.
[00:36:25] Speaker B: Maybe people are more isolated now because they're using this instead of people. Like they.
[00:36:29] Speaker A: Oh, definitely. This is your best friend. I mean, if you don't get a. I mean, I turned mine off, but, you know, if I don't have any messages, what won't be, you know, but this. The phone has become a messenger, but also an addiction because we are constantly looking at it. Constantly. Digital addiction has grown.
[00:36:51] Speaker B: I want to wrap this up. And if there's a listener who's struggling Tonight, what's the one brave next step they could take?
[00:36:58] Speaker A: Pick up the phone and call. You can always call me. 619-507-1699. You can call a health line, you can call a crisis line. Maybe you call your best friend, maybe you call someone you don't know. But again, courage is fear that says prayers. You're not going to get anywhere just staying like this.
Or maybe a friend, it's not just the person who's struggling. What about the friend who knows a person who's struggling?
Don't be afraid. What's the worst thing that happened? They're going to get mad at you because they're using. Don't be ridiculous. You could be that very often that lifeguard who goes out to save a drowning person and you're going to feel better about yourself whatever they decide to do.
[00:37:46] Speaker B: Yeah, the friend probably needs as much help as the person.
[00:37:50] Speaker A: That's right. But the friends, you know, if they're afraid, you know, friends often are the ones that call.
Loved ones are the ones that call. You don't really. You rarely get a call from someone that says, hi, you know what, I'm an addict, I need help. You don't get those calls. You get them from mothers, fathers, sisters, brothers, lovers.
That's who calls you.
And so they're the ones that you're actually working with at first.
And, you know, and you have to compliment them on the courage to pick up the phone to say, I want to try to help someone. And I'm really angry at them because usually they're really pissed off at the person for what they've been doing. And you can understand that.
[00:38:41] Speaker B: And then there's the long road of repair. That's probably for another podcast episode that
[00:38:46] Speaker A: is, that is, it's not like, you know, there's not a quick fix. And we live in quick instant breakfasts. So there's no quick fix. You have to be willing to do the work and you have to be willing to have good Sherpas, good guides to help you climb the mountain.
Because I think that's, I think that is indigenous to getting help.
[00:39:09] Speaker B: One final question about treatment centers.
You know, treatment centers have a reputation, especially like in the medical circles. My friends who are doctors are like, I don't really trust those treatment centers. You know, they're all money making enterprise enterprises. How can you pick a good treatment center from a bad one?
[00:39:26] Speaker A: I guess you could look in my book because I have all the qualifications of. I think it's an addiction in the family. What Good treatment looks like, like, you know, and you can pick the best one and it's still the wrong one, but you want to make sure. Do they have a medical staff? Who's in charge? Who are the clinicians? What are their training? What are their background? Do they have people in recovery? It's important that you have a peer in recovery.
And what is their scope?
Do they use cbt? Do they use dvt? I mean, what modalities do they offer?
And what non modalities, more experiential therapies do they offer? Does this match my loved one? There's a lot of characteristics that go into choosing a treatment center. It's not like you look in the yellow pages, but you have to know the person. You have to know what their resources are and you have to think outside the box a little bit. Or what do they like? What if they were a composer?
Wouldn't you want a treatment center that had a piano or ability to match up? What if they were a runner?
Don't you want to have a running track as long as that so they could still exercise or a swimmer? You have to understand the person.
And how do they work with family?
What's their family program? Do they have a professional assigned to work with? The person who's calling doesn't get off the hook. They have to change too.
So I think there's so many different variables that go into picking good treatment, but also starting again, always starting where that client is and where your family is.
Because you could say, oh well, I'm going to send everybody to McLean. But McLean's not the right match. It's not that McLean isn't wonderful, it's just not the right match. And I only use them because we talked about them earlier. But you know, you want to make a match.
[00:41:38] Speaker B: Plus if somebody, let's say is got a marijuana addiction and you send them to a place that's primarily about alcohol addiction, like they're not going to identify with the other people in the program.
[00:41:48] Speaker A: That's right. But that probably doesn't exist today. Everybody's dually diagnosed and everybody's usually using 90 lots of different things. But if you feel that way, you want to make sure that there are other people there. But you have to ask those questions like what do you do with marijuana? What do you do with alcohol? What do you do with other drugs? What do you do with prescription drugs?
[00:42:09] Speaker B: How do you feel about single sex treatment centers?
[00:42:12] Speaker A: Sometimes that can be absolutely wonderful because sometimes people can get sidetracked in a treatment center. You know, so it depends. Did that. If you have. Let me try and say something nice. If you have a young girl and she's been having multiple partners, maybe it would be better for her to go to a same sex treatment center. She can learn how to be a young girl, a woman. There's all kinds of variables again to take place. I don't see anything wrong with a single sex treatment center. It could be very helpful if you need to learn how to get along with. With the opposite sex, then maybe that. But what. How did they mingle? What do they do?
Because what you don't want in a treatment center is for people to go end up going to bed with one another, which happens all the time.
[00:43:08] Speaker B: You know that 13 stepping they call the 13 step.
[00:43:11] Speaker A: That's right. You don't want anybody 13 stepping.
[00:43:14] Speaker B: Well, there's a reason why like in 12 step you're supposed to have a sponsor of the same sex. Unless you're gay and then which case you. Yeah, because it's so easy to like in my case, to switch the addiction from the substance to the person.
[00:43:27] Speaker A: That's right.
[00:43:29] Speaker B: Yeah, like cross addiction stuff.
Thank you, Dr. Stanger, it's been lovely.
[00:43:35] Speaker A: Well, thank you. It's a real pleasure to be with you and it sounds like you have a great recovery going for yourself and you've learned a lot about addiction and I'm so honored that you're sharing this with others. And if I can ever be of service, just give me a call.
[00:43:52] Speaker B: Thank you. Dr. Sanger.
If this episode landed for you, share it with someone who might need to hear it. And if you haven't already, subscribe so you don't miss what's coming. But here's the real thing. I want you to know if you're carrying something you can't talk about, if you have every resource except someone who actually understands what wealth costs. I work one on one with people like you navigating exactly that. You can reach me@diana oehrli.com. thanks for listening.
