Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: So if you come in with reasonable expectations and a goal, and maybe your goal after listening to this is just to realize, oh, I kind of stray more towards authoritarian, or, oh, I kind of stray more towards permissive. Maybe your goal is to just come a little more in the center, a little more to the authoritative parenting style, then that's a huge win.
[00:00:21] Speaker B: I'm Diana Earley, and I've spent most of my life learning firsthand what privilege actually costs.
The legacy control, the family expectations, the guilt of feeling trapped in a life everyone thinks you should be grateful for. If you've ever wondered why having everything still feels like something's missing, you're in the right place.
Welcome to Pressures of Privilege.
My guest today is Dr. Lindsay Emerson. She has a PhD in psychology. She she's a mom of four, a wife and a parenting coach. She teaches parents psychology based tools to handle any parenting moment without yelling and without pushing their kids away.
But here's what pulled me to her.
So many of us carry something heavy. The feeling that we have to get parenting right, that one wrong move will cost us. Lindsay knows that pressure, and she's built her whole practice around a simple, freeing idea.
You don't have to get it all right, you get to breathe. Lindsay, welcome to the show.
[00:01:28] Speaker A: Well, thanks so much, Diana. I'm very happy to be here.
[00:01:31] Speaker B: My kids are older now, but I do remember feeling that pressure of, oh, am I getting it right? Or feeling like a total failure? So my question to you is, where does the pressure to get parenting right actually come from?
[00:01:45] Speaker A: Well, I think at our core, the vast majority of parents want to do their best, right? We have some sort of biological calling, some sort of social cultivation, whatever leads us to become parents. Often it's planned and we want to do the best we can. We go into it with those aspirations and the reality of becoming a parent hits. And as you know, it's very challenging.
And there are good days, there are tough days, there are days that are you're just barely eeking by.
And my entire practice is based on psychology backed strategies. So I'm always calling upon the research to help inform what I do in my own parenting and what I help other parents learn for their own parenting practice. And so when we look at the research, Diana, there is no pressure to be perfect. In fact, there is very reassuring research that says if you're getting this thing, you know, more or less right, about 50% of the time, you're doing great and your kids are going to turn out great. So when you hear generalities, you Know, try to always do this, try to always respond that way, try to always be consistent. Those are great things to keep in mind. And without those goals, we wouldn't meet our expectations. Right. But we have to remember that those are goals. They're not hard and fast rules that have to meet met every day. And if you have a tough day, you can remember, okay, did I at least get 50% of today? And usually the answer is yes.
[00:03:18] Speaker B: Have parents always felt this way, like feeling like they were measuring themselves up against some kind of idea of what great parenting is?
[00:03:28] Speaker A: Oh, I think it's much more challenging now because of social media for one huge factor. You know, you, we are exposed to visual displays of what parenting should look like and what parenting shouldn't look like on a daily basis. And just in such magnitude. It used to be maybe you went to the playground with your child once a day or once a week and you would see all these other parents, or you'd be a drop off and you would see the other parents and you'd have some sort of reference point. Right. We can all learn a lot from just observing others.
Very popular concept within behavioral psychology, observational learning. We all learn from watching and we can look and say, ooh, maybe I'm not doing that quite right, or oh, wow, I'm doing a little better than they are. But when you're on social media and you have exposure to this constantly, you know, if you, if you look up one parenting reel, the algorithm is going to start feeding you more and more, and pretty soon you open up any account and you're bombarded with parenting content. Right? And so it's just thrown at us and it can lead to a lot of doubt and questioning and insecurity in our own parenting skills.
[00:04:35] Speaker B: My parents generation seemed to be more interested in having fun. They weren't really focused on being good parents.
They just wanted to make sure that, you know, we had roots and wings and that we were independent and were able to function. So I wonder what's changed. You think it's really social media?
[00:04:52] Speaker A: I think that's one factor. With anything, any big change, there are going to be multiple factors. So social media is one factor. Another factor is a lot of the parents that you're talking about raised kids who were well behaved and went on to do good things. And then they realized one day, hey, I'm not actually really happy or I don't really know myself, or how do I make my own choices? Because my parents always told me what to do. And so they realized that their Parents sort of let them down by using a particular parenting style, which was in that era, more commonly authoritarian, where it was because I said so in rules focused and strict rules, blame, shame, guilt, when you did things wrong. And so those kids grew up and they said, I don't want to parent like that. I don't want my kids to turn out like I did. I don't want them to have the same relationship I do with my parents. I want to do something different.
And so you saw a little bit of a pendulum shift in the other direction. So then we had the. The era of parents being overly permissive. Whatever the kid says goes, you can stay up whenever you want.
You can set your own rules or have fun.
No, just not wanting to in get involved in any sort of disagreements, not holding your ground at all. So that we shift from authoritarian to permissive parenting. And neither of those were the right way to parent. So, and these are, of course, generalities, not everybody's making this shift, but especially in the United States, we sort of saw that pendulum shift. And then we say, well, what about, why are these millennials having no responsibility? And what's on going. Going on with this whole generation? Right. And so then we start to look at, oh, okay, this is what happened. We had a huge shift this way, we had a huge shift that way. And when we actually look back at decades of psychology research, it's very clear that neither of those parenting styles have the best outcomes for kids. They don't create the best finance family dynamics. They don't create the kids who want to spend time with their parents when they're older. They don't create kids who are thriving academically, emotionally, socially.
The best outcomes universally across cultures, across ses, across all sorts of factors come from the middle ground. So there's another parenting style called authoritative parenting, and most people have never even heard that term. The closest thing that people have typically heard is gentle parenting. So gentle parenting can be authoritative parenting, but it's sometimes veers a little closer to permissive. So people who say, I'm practicing gentle parenting, sometimes they're doing it right and they're balancing both warmth and structure. But sometimes they've just got the warmth part down and they're neglecting the structure. And really the best outcomes come from both.
[00:07:47] Speaker B: I see. Yeah. Because there's, There's. I'm seeing a few people I've interviewed have been very much against gentle parenting. But now I love what you're saying is that it's. You can be gentle and authoritative.
[00:07:59] Speaker A: Yeah. And that Term. I, so I, I tend to just avoid using the term gender parenting because people so often say they're using it, but they're actually not. They're, they're using permissive parenting.
[00:08:09] Speaker B: I, I know when, when my kids were little, one thing and I, because I raised them in the Swiss Alps in a, in an agricultural neighborhood where it was just, it's part of the culture. The kids come home for lunch, the moms cook, the husbands come home sometimes if their, their work jobs are close by. And at first I really rebelled against that. I thought, oh God, I went to college and here I am, you know, being haus frau, cooking meals every single day. And, and basically from 10am I had to go shopping, I had to cook, and 12 o', clock the kids came, came in from, you know, from school. I resented it at first, but then I got really used to it and, and I love the energy when they came home at that time and, and they were like, very, very chatty and it was just a wonderful thing to sit down with them and have a meal with them. I thought that was one thing I did right because of the culture I was in. But I wasn't very good at making them do chores.
[00:09:03] Speaker A: Chores are tough. I help parents a lot with chores and manners are tough too. So there are, there are always things that we struggle with in our parenting, right? There's some things that we feel like we do more naturally. You know, some of us just have that warmth instinct with our kids, and it's so easy to bring the warmth. Not all parents have that, but some do, and others struggle with the boundaries. And so the key thing is for parents to recognize where they naturally fall. And sometimes it's just, this is my inclination, and sometimes, well, this is what I learned from my parents, and so I'm just regurgitating it. So whatever caused you to be this way, you learn where you fall on that spectrum. Do I tend to be more rule focused and rule rigid? Do I tend to be more just warmth focused and permissive? And I don't want to hurt my child's feelings ever. Or make them struggle ever. And realizing that those extremes are not beneficial. And what truly helps your child to learn all the skills they need to thrive when they are 18 and go on to become independent adults is that balance of warmth and structure. Rules that are provided in a soft, guiding way. There's always a teaching element behind them. You're using natural consequences, you're using reason, you're explaining to your kids, you're teaching them problem Solving all of this is falling under that authoritative parenting realm. And when parents can accept that, that is the key component to what I call amazing parenting, because authoritative is such a mouthful and it sounds so similar to authoritarian parenting. So when you can just realize that these are the key components to amazing parenting, it's warmth and structure. And I like to refer to it as being the loving authority figure in the relationship. So you're bringing all the love, you're bringing all the warmth, but you're also the authority figure. And you have to be there setting rules, reasonable rules, but rules that have to be at health. And maybe it's, hey, now that you're 10, it's time for you to be fully responsible for your laundry. And that's what's going to happen if you ask me to do my laundry, your laundry, for you. It's not going to happen anymore, but you're very capable and I'm going to help train you, I'm going to get you there. We're not going to just start that tomorrow. Hopefully you actually started years ago because kids can start with laundry very early on. You would be shocked how Many parents have 10 year olds who have never done a drop of laundry. And they can very easily be completely independent by 10. So you have this timeline in mind for independence and you help them get towards it and you support them. And part of it is just knowing, okay, I need to have some structure for them. Where am I going to bring in the structure? And in your family, maybe it's, you know, tourists, maybe it's other responsibilities. Maybe you have a farm and you need to care for the animals. You know, there are different responsibilities in different settings. Maybe it's sports, you know, maybe your family's really into sports. Okay, you got to be responsible for keeping track of your gear and practicing and all this jazz. So in, in whatever capacity you want to prioritize that for your kids, they need to have responsibility, they need to have expectations.
And that is that that balance is having those expectations for your kids and making sure that your kids understand why. And it makes them feel like a meaningful part of your family. And that's what leads them to feel confident and capable.
[00:12:37] Speaker B: I found it very difficult to get kids to clean up their toys, to clean up their rooms and all of that. It's funny, I went to a camp and so did my youngest, my son, where they have chores at the camp, but everybody does the chores at the same time. So it's a lot easier, I think, to enforce when, okay, it's chore now it's chore time. All of us, everybody does it together. I think it's a lot easier than saying, well, this is an expectation that you have to get done during the day, like on your own time. But a kid doesn't really know when that time is, so they're busy playing and they're not very good at knowing when is chore time and when is not chore time. Am I onto something here? I wish. I.
[00:13:16] Speaker A: Absolutely, yeah. I mean, you, you can do it either way. If it works for your family to set up a chore time, you can absolutely do that. So some people will have sort of a family wide household tidy up either before, before or after dinner. And so everybody has a role. And you teach your children to look out for what needs to be done in the house. And so they learn, oh, hey, that couch pillows on the floor, I'll pick that up. Or they have an assigned responsibility. Your job's going to be to load the dishwasher. And so you can definitely do a chore time together. And it's helpful to have it be consistent if something that would happen at the same time every day.
And you can also just go with independent chores and you can help them with visual aids and clear lists and reminders. One key concept in authoritative or amazing parenting is this concept of scaffolding. And so it's a developmental psychology concept where you have. Think of it as a ladder, a ladder of increasing independence in any skill. So we can go back to the laundry example. You start out with having zero responsibility for laundry, right. For years, mom or dad or whoever in the house is doing all your laundry for you, and you miraculously have clean clothes and they're in the closet.
And then by the time they're 18, they should know how to do laundry on their own. They can learn. The first week of college is fine, but it's much easier for the transition if you help prepare them. And it takes a lot of stress off you if you're not doing laundry. I mean, I have four kids. It was a lot when I was doing four kids laundry, six people's laundry. Yeah. So I was very motivated to get people to help out with laundry. So they started early. So. And we have this ladder, right? Okay. So you can envision both ends. And so depending on your child's age and their skill set and their motivation level, you can gauge, you know, which rung of the ladder are they on and what your job as the parent to do is to come in as the scaffolding, you know, I'm going to support you up to this stage.
And once you're here, I'm only going to provide support here. So I can see that you're great at getting the laundry in to the washer, but sometimes you forget the soap. So I'm going to come in and I'm going to be a little reminder, oh, do you remember the soap today? Oh, great. And do some positive reinforcement afterwards. But I'm not going to remind you to start your laundry because you already know how to do that. So the steps that go up to here, you already know how to gather your laundry, you know already know how to bring it over to the machine, you already know how to put it in the machine. So I'm not going to help with those steps. You're totally independent there. I'm to support you here with that little reminder about the soap and then the steps beyond. And so as your child grows and matures, you move up the rungs of the ladder and you support them at the right step. And this is the step right above that that they're next trying to learn. You remember the soap or listen for the timer, move it to the dryer so it doesn't sit there and get wrinkly. Whatever the next step is is called the zone of proximal development.
And you're helping your child to successively move up in that zone until they get to that next rung on the ladder. And so I like that visual so the parents can really know where to focus their efforts and have clear goals in mind. Is we don't want to be thinking every day, what do I need to do to teach my child? We don't want to be worrying about that, but we need it in the back of our heads, right? At some point I want to make sure my child is fully independent on this skill. So are we getting there? Am I doing what I need to do? Am I supporting them at the right phase? And you don't want to support them at the earlier phases. If you have a child who you know, let's say is completely independent eating, they might have a day when they're feeling sick or tired and you help them a little, you maybe spoon feed them a little bit, but they need to get back to eating independently because they know how to eat independently. And you might have a younger child who need to support in that. So you support each child where they need to be supported. But we don't want to provide too much support below that level. We want to make sure they maintain their independence and experience that As a source of pride.
[00:17:14] Speaker B: Wow. Yeah. I think when my kids were little, they were more interested in chores. And then as they got older, they lost an interest. So I think you kind of need to grab them when they're, oh, mommy, mommy, mommy, I want to help you.
[00:17:26] Speaker A: It's very helpful. Absolutely. And you keep it fun, you keep it light. It's play based. Yeah. And then there will come a day for almost every child who says, oh, well, I don't really feel like doing that today. Why do I have to do that? And then you start to talk about it as being a meaningful part of the family. And we all have our responsibilities in the family. You know, these are the things that I do to support you. And, you know, I drive you to school and I cook you dinner and, and blah, blah, blah. There's probably a thousand things you can to their one thing you're asking them to do. And so you, you then start to really help them to internalize this sense of responsibility.
And you can even point out, just practically if you're helping with this, that frees up some of my time. So then we can do more fun things together. Together. So what should we do after we're done with our chores together? Should we go read a book? Should we go for a walk? And so you help to connect the dots on why they have to do it. It's not always fun. You know, they do once they grow up a little head realize, oh, it's not so awesome doing laundry. You can point out that it's helpful and that it's part of their responsibility. And actually doing chores is, is one of those independent variables that's linked with really great long term success for kids. So if I'm sure your kids are doing great without the chores, but overall it is a great thing for parents to focus on is chores.
[00:18:47] Speaker B: I think camp taught my son how to do chores. I, I failed miserably. I think part of the problem was I also was working. I was a single mom and working from home, which I think is a disaster because I think when kids see that you're home but you're not focused on the kids, they're like, what, Mom's
[00:19:03] Speaker A: not interested in us.
[00:19:04] Speaker B: I think it's easier when the kids are. When, when I, when I would go to the office, oh, mom's going to the office, she's going to work. That's different than if I'm home office, you know, and they can't come in.
I, I found that very, very difficult. And then it was hard when I Finally could go into mom mode. There was just so little time to do the chores with them. It was just like, okay, quick, we have to do dinner, bath story.
When's the time to do laundry? And plus I was exhausted, so it's just easier just to do laundry without them.
[00:19:34] Speaker A: Yeah. And kind of every parent has to pick those battles. You know what's gonna be easier for me right now? And sometimes we're just so drained that we let some things go. And that's okay as long as you're prioritizing some of the important things. Like that the fact that your kids came home and had lunch with you and that you prepped that meal and sat with them and talked to them and got to enjoy them midday as opposed to the end of the day when they're spent and usually not very emotionally regulated. I mean, that's beautiful and that's very meaningful.
[00:20:02] Speaker B: Yeah. Then I sent them to. They were in public school. And then I sent them to private school because at. I was in this little village where like grade one through four were in one classroom. It was a one classroom school. And then there was five through nine were in one classroom. But the, the school, the. The 5 through 9 classroom in our neighborhood was for kids who would never go on to high school. They were just. They were going to do farming and that was it. And I wanted more for my kids. So I put them in private school. And they didn't test. They unfortunately didn't test into the public version of that. So I put them in private and that meant they didn't come home for lunch. And I was devastated. I was just. I didn't know what to do at the middle of my days. Like my sense of purpose was gone. So sad. And then they would come home at the end of the day exhausted, like mom. They only gave us a half an hour to eat. And it was a huge loss. I had to grieve that.
[00:20:54] Speaker A: Oh, I hear you parents frequently talk to me about that after school meltdown. It's so common. And there's even a term for it. It's called after school restraint collapse. Because they're working so hard all day to hold in those impulsive behaviors and try to sit still and do what the teacher asks and follow the rules. There's so much that their little brains have to keep track of all day. Not even thinking about all the learning they're doing. Right. And so there's just so much going on that school day that they often just lose it right afterwards. And you might see their worst behavior and honestly, one of the most helpful things in that situation when working with parents is there's some problem solving you can do around it in terms of, like, scheduling and eating and resting and whatnot. But the. One of the most helpful things for parents is to change their perspective and realize that the reason they're giving you that behavior, that terrible behavior, is because you're their trusted adult, you're their secure attachment figure, and they feel comfortable knowing that they can give you their worst. And you're still going to love them, you're still going to support them. It doesn't change how they appear in your eye. And meanwhile, the teacher, the teacher's not that person. So they have to do their best, and they just have completely spent all their energy, and when they get to you, they just know that it's okay. And so for parents to realize the important role that that behavior has in showing how strong of a bond you have with them and how great you've done at establishing that secure attachment, that can be enough of a perspective shift to just give parents more patience in those moments.
[00:22:38] Speaker B: So what surprised you most when you became a parent yourself, even with a psychology background?
[00:22:44] Speaker A: Yeah, so I would say it took me a few. Few years. Initially, there was that surprise of, oh, my gosh, am I ever going to be able to put this child down? Because he cries the second I put him down. That was. That was super obvious.
But only for one of my kids who must have had some reflux or something. I wasn't like that.
[00:23:04] Speaker B: My mom said, oh, you. You were the most needy the minute
[00:23:07] Speaker A: I put you down.
[00:23:08] Speaker B: Like you.
[00:23:08] Speaker A: You could feel gravity.
Yeah. And it. It was more just that worry of, is it ever going to go away? Because you don't know. It's every day.
And you just don't know when they did. And it was fine. And in retrospect, it was just a few months, but it was a lot of sleeping vertically.
So that was the first surprise. But honestly, what surprised me most about parenting is how infuriating kids can be. And I think a lot of parents are afraid to say that.
Some will freely admit, like, oh, I just turn into mommy monster and rage takes over, but free for me.
I'm a very steady person, and I truly have never exploded on a person before, never lit into someone. Almost never had any altercations before having kids. And even when I was going through my training, I worked at the Veterans Hospital in San Diego and I taught anger management courses. And it was very academic. You know, talk to them about the anger Spirit spiral. And I had never really gotten that angry before.
And when you are a very rational person and you're around all these little people who are behaving irrationally, that's when it first hit me. You know, not every day, but there were definitely times where I would just say, wow, I feel completely out of control right now. And like, this spiral, it's making sense now, and only because of this little person who does not know better. It's not really trying to make me mad. They're just having a hard time. But in the moment, it's just that lot of emotions. And I totally understood that fight or flight instinct. So when I work with parents now who kind of, they say, oh, just I'm yelling at my kids. I'm in this guilt cycle where I try, try be calm, and then I lose it, and then I feel bad, and then I'm apologizing, and then the whole thing learning point is gone. I get it. I have been there, I understand.
And now I have all these tools that I can help you with to overcome that. And so there are tons of strategies we can learn, lots of coping skills, lots of preventative measures, lots we can do on that front to help other parents who are going through those mom or dad rage moments, because they happen and they can be really startling and unsettling.
[00:25:33] Speaker B: Well, I think that's so helpful to know that. I remember when I yelled at my, my child or my children really badly one time I, I would talk to a girlfriend and she's like, Diana, I, I scream at my kids all the time. Don't worry. It's like it's normal. I mean, it's not great, but it's at least I, I, I felt horrible, though, so that it's nice to know that other people do it. It's really helpful also to know that kids will, the more comfortable they are with you, the more they will, what do you call it, that anger spiral or when they come home from school.
[00:26:01] Speaker A: Yeah. Well, after school, restraint, collapse, collapse. All that restraint is just gone. And then think of it as just like letting loose.
[00:26:09] Speaker B: So the worse they behave with you, that means that they actually trust you and they feel comfortable doing that with you.
[00:26:15] Speaker A: It's a great point to focus on because one of the best things that you can do for your kids is to create a secure attachment bond in the first one to three years.
And it doesn't, you know, not everybody's in a position. Maybe you adopted a child later than that. Maybe there was a loss, what have you. There's there, there are ways to overcome if you miss out on that critical period, but really somewhere around nine months, attachment becomes a very important part of the parent child relationship.
And the basis of that attachment relationship is warm and consistent responses. So when your child is crying, when they're hurt, when something upsets them, startles them, for you to react warmly and to be responsive, to actually go to them, to care for them, to soothe them, that is the foundation that creates that bond that will go on forever and lets them know that you're always there for them, that they do not change in your mind's eye just because they have some problem today or some misbehavior today. That you are always a critical, connected piece of them. And that becomes the basis for all, the foundation for all future relationships. So it creates this template for what a strong, committed relationship should be like. So when they feel that connection to you and that security with you, they feel they are more willing to go out and try things and be independent. And then when they go looking for relationships in the future, whether it's friends or romantically, they know what to look for. They want to look for somebody who's going to be for them in that way and going to support them in that way.
[00:28:01] Speaker B: That sense of attachment gets created between 0 and 3 or 1 and 3,
[00:28:06] Speaker A: those that's the critical period. Nine months is when it really starts to kick in and you start to see more separation anxiety around that time. And so there's this critical window kind of in the eight to nine month range that you do start to see some lasting social relationship issues with people as they go, as they get older, if they didn't have that secure attachment at around that age. There's a whole series of studies.
Romania went through an unfortunate period decades ago where they had extremely overcrowded orphanages and kids were in just terrible, appalling conditions with very, very little interaction with adults. And so you saw a whole generation of kids raised in these orphanages who grew up without a secure attachment bond. And unfortunately the, the follow up studies have shown really lasting difficulties forming relationships, trusting in other people. It's tough.
[00:29:05] Speaker B: Yeah. I heard some babies died if they weren't held.
[00:29:08] Speaker A: That is true. That is true. You can actually die from not having a physical contact. You need physical contact.
[00:29:18] Speaker B: So sad.
So what's one thing that parents beat themselves up over? You know, that honestly you don't think matters as much as they think?
[00:29:27] Speaker A: I would say that it's usually more of those, you know, keeping up with the Joneses type of Things, you know, is my kid playing enough sports? You know, are they doing a musical instrument? Do they speak every language? Those are all great things, but your child doesn't have to do them. When you really think about what is most important in how I raise my child and what is going to lead to the best outcomes, it's the basic stuff. It's having that secure attachment bond, it's having a warm influence in the home. And there are studies after studies that back that up and everything else you do on top that is great. You know, it's more cognitive development, more opportunities to explore their interests. It's all great. But the parents should never feel pressure to just check all those boxes and make sure their kid's doing all that. If you are a supportive, warm parent who guides them with reasonable rules and teaches them along the way, that's it. That's all you need to do to raise a wonderful child who will look back on their childhood and say, hey, I was really fortunate.
[00:30:35] Speaker B: What would you say to a parent who's maybe working? Well, they have said, you have parents who are working and they have a nanny who takes care of the kids, and the kids come home to a nanny and the nanny basically does everything. And maybe the kids get to say goodnight to the parents. Sometimes they don't, or they might see them at breakfast. I mean, that's tough, huh?
[00:30:55] Speaker A: It's tough. But here's the thing.
There is a lot of research on attachment and daycare.
And as long as you choose a, whether it's a nanny or daycare or whatever, care. But grandma, as long as you choose a care provider who is consistent in terms of how long and how often they work with your child, but also in how they interact with your child and of high quality so they're not staring at their phone all day, they're actually interacting with your child, reading to them, talking to them. That daycare does not have objectively negative association with attachment bond. It's the time that you do spend with your child that can still form that bond. Now, if you're working eight hours a week, it's going to be tough to form that time. Plus, kids sleep long during the night. It's just limited hours. So I would say to a parent who's working eight hours a week, hey, you really need to reevaluate what's important to you at this phase of your life. But if you're working 40 hours a week, parents shouldn't feel guilt over that, but they should be very focused on spending quality time with their Child in that morning time, that evening time, and the weekend time, because you do need to put in the hours to develop that relationship, to show them, hey, I'm going to be responsive when you need me. I'm not, you know, I'm not here all the time, but when I'm here, I am responsive, and I'm going to come and help you and be warm, and that's how you get that bond.
[00:32:23] Speaker B: I was raised at a time where children are to be seen and not heard.
I was raised by a nanny who is still in our family 50 years later. I wouldn't say she was the warmest caregiver, but she was consistent and she was there and she was present, and she was incredibly strict. Make your bed, you know, do the dishes, bring down your laundry. We never had to do laundry, but we had to bring down the laundry, and then we had to pick it up and it was clean and put it away.
[00:32:49] Speaker A: That's helping with chores. That's having responsibility. That's good. That's definitely a start. But it definitely sounds like both your nanny and your parents were very authoritarian.
[00:32:59] Speaker B: Yes. Yes, very. You know, she had to cook all these meals, and she was dealing with three kids and they weren't hers, and she was on duty 24 7.
[00:33:06] Speaker A: Yeah. And as a rational adult, you can look back on that and be understanding and see, you know, the shades of gray. Nothing's black and white. And so. And I'm sure there are reasons your parents were so authoritarian. And they. There were even times when experts were saying. I mean, true experts in the field of psychology were saying, which only matters the consequences you have, and you don't need more.
And so we've. We've come a long way. Everybody's doing the best they can with the information they have at the time.
[00:33:35] Speaker B: Yeah, well, my. My father died when I was five, so it was. Mom was a single mom, but she had this. She found this Chinese lady who.
I mean, it was, I think, a godsend. I. I see her as a godsend. And even though she had this, I wouldn't call warm, she was very consequent. You know, you need to do this, you need to do that.
She's a lot warmer now. To my children, they call her Grandma. And she's just incredibly.
And I wouldn't say she was cold. Like, I remember having a nightmare of the Jungle Book, the Tiger and the Jungle Book, because I'd watched that cartoon. I remember going in her room at night for comfort, and she just grabbed my hand. I was like, that's okay, Diana, we'll go back to your room and go to sleep. There wasn't this sort of like, oh, I'll hug you. You're gonna be okay. It was like, no going back to bed. There's no tiger here. Go to bed.
[00:34:25] Speaker A: Yeah. So she held that consequence. You know, you sleep in your own room. But she wasn't. She wasn't punitive about it.
[00:34:31] Speaker B: No, no, no, no, no.
[00:34:32] Speaker A: How to not be able to sleep.
[00:34:33] Speaker B: No, no, no.
[00:34:34] Speaker A: She was neutral.
[00:34:35] Speaker B: It was very neutral. Which actually, looking bad was probably what one needs when one is in a, like, semi sleep state. You know, you don't want to have the overly emotional, I guess, but I felt more comfortable going in her room. Plus my mom, like, she slept in the other part of the house, which was probably. I had to cross, like, four hallways to get there in the dark, and it was scary to go that way.
[00:34:54] Speaker A: So that's an interesting setup. Okay, what's the small change that a
[00:34:58] Speaker B: parent could make this week to feel less pressure?
[00:35:02] Speaker A: Well, I would start by noticing how during the day, how much of your interactions with your child are positive, neutral, or negative.
And if you feel like you have a good ratio, and a good ratio would be about 20% are negative. And it doesn't.
That doesn't need to mean everybody's walking away crying.
[00:35:29] Speaker B: Right.
[00:35:29] Speaker A: It just means it's more of a consequence or a teaching moment where perhaps it's not all smiles and giggles. So we've got 20% negative, we've got 80% neutral to positive. And ideally, a large number of that 80% is positive. So if you just start noticing where you fall in that ratio, and if you notice, hey, I'm. I'm doing a pretty good job, I'm like 80% neutral, positive, no more than 20% naive, then that's great, and you can pat yourself on the back. If you notice that it's more like a 50, 50, then just become aware of that and say, okay, well, I would like to change that ratio. And the reason you want to change that ratio is because there's research showing that when parents are overly critical and more than 20% of your negative of your interactions with your child are negative, it actually leads to worse behavior in kids.
So it. It. You have major motivation. Right? It makes your quality of life better, and it makes their behavior better. So if you notice that ratio is a little off, then what you want to do is start focusing on positive interactions.
So you want to pick and choose your battles so that you're not having too many Negative. But you want to start choosing to notice the good behavior more. And so that's something really easy that parents can do is to notice when their child is having good behavior and praise them, offer positive reinforcement. High five. Just really verbally stating, gosh, I love how you cleared your plate without being asked, or oh, good job throwing a please on that made such a nice request for my ears. Just these little positive interactions throughout the day, they add up and you start to notice the percentage of your overall interactions better, being better and better, and then the negative stuff becomes less and less over time. So I would start there. Start with praising the positive.
[00:37:21] Speaker B: Yeah, because I've heard that it's better to praise not who they are, but what they do.
[00:37:26] Speaker A: That's kind of a complex question. But there are a couple different related thoughts in there, so. So one is you may be thinking about growth mindset.
Psychologist Carol Dweck in the last just 10, 20 years has blown up this whole new field of growth mindset. And so that is helping kids to feel more comfortable with challenges and trying new things and not fearing failure. And so there it the subtlety there. What you'll hear a lot on social media is don't tell your kid that they're smart.
Right, right, right, yeah. Instead say oh, good boy, for example, you're such a good boy. Oh yeah, yeah, good boy. Yeah, exactly. So, so as opposed to praising attributes that are internal and non changing, you want to focus instead on effort based attributes. So you put in hard work or wow, you really thought through different solutions there. I like how you persevered through that challenge and you didn't give up. And so that's all great. And you do want to be praising the effort.
It's okay to tell your child they're a good boy and to tell them they're smart. You just want to balance it. Like I never want a parent to feel like, oh, I said the wrong thing because I told them they were pretty.
It's fine, it's fine. Just, oh, it's okay to say that
[00:38:44] Speaker B: to, to say you're pretty.
[00:38:45] Speaker A: I mean, I think you would be sad if somebody never told you you were pretty. Right. You just want them to know that pretty is not the only thing they have and that they have, you know, all these other wonderful things to them and wow, you look, you might even phrase it as wow, I really like the outfit that you selected today that looks great on you, you know, as opposed to focusing on just the physical features. But it's fine to mix in a little. You're pretty. With all the other effort things I. Parents should never feel like it's all black and white, all or nothing. It's okay to do both. But the other thing that your question reminded me of is a concept that I love talking to parents about. So psychologist Carl Rogers developed this, this style of therapy called humanistic therapy, where a client centered humanistic approach where he would focus on, on using a strategy called unconditional positive regard. And it would be. We sort of touched on this earlier without naming the term, but it's this idea of taking your child and their inherent worth and their value and their importance in your family and separating that from the behavior. So maybe they said something rude or they, they got in trouble at school or they hit their sibling. Whatever the behavior du jour is separating that from their self worth. And when you teach your child, when you offer any sort of consequence, you separate those, hey, you're such a good kid. We're just working hard on learning to use gentle touch. So what I need you to do now is show me gentle touch. You know, it's as simple as that. It is really separating the behavior so that their inherent sense self worth remains intact. And they know that everybody makes mistakes. So that's why it ties in so much to that growth mindset. Everybody makes mistakes. Just because you hit your brother doesn't mean you're a bad kid. It just means we need to learn on some coping skills. Right. When he takes your toy, why not? Let's learn some strategies here, right? How to stay calm, how to ask for the toy back, how to negotiate. And so it's a teaching moment. It's not a you're a bad child moment. And that's again when we get back to differentiating authoritative parenting from authoritarian parenting. Because authoritarian parenting is the blame and shame. How could you do that? Oh, good. Boys don't hit. And we do not want to say that to our kids. We want our kids to know that they're a good boy and they also shouldn't hit.
[00:41:13] Speaker B: Do you work with parents of children who are older than, let's say 9 or 10 or 11?
[00:41:19] Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. So I have a parenting system that I developed. It's called the five Cs to amazing parenting. And it's the five areas where I feel that parents can put intentional effort and see very meaningful outcomes in their child's behavior and their family dynamics. And so the five Cs to Amazing Parenting apply at all ages, all stages, 0 to 18.
I tend to do more of my marketing in the 0 to 12, because that's when more parents are kind of coming with this same sort of tantrums, meltdowns, defiance type issues. And so it's, it's easier to talk to them as a group, whereas the teens are really coming from a different category. It's best to start working with parents early. I love when I start working with parents before age 5, because that's where it really starts to sink in that you are the loving authority figure. And so when you can set that up before age 5, it's just so much easier after that. You're just going to have so much, so many fewer problems with your child in the 5 to 10 and above range. But the 5 Cs apply at all ages, so I, I definitely work with the full range.
[00:42:25] Speaker B: Yeah, because I, here in Brookline, I, I, I go in the dog park and I talk to people in the park. And there's this One woman with two kids who are 11, they're twins, and apparently they're the mean girl. Stuff was already starting at age 11, and we were talking about how this little girl thinks it's actually cool. This other, this mean girl is cool because she's very popular.
So then I was thinking, well, maybe it's because she's got confidence, and confidence is really attractive, and wouldn't it be good to separate the confidence from the meanness and maybe couple it with being kind instead? How do you counsel parents who have children who are suffering because of mean girl stuff going on in school?
[00:43:04] Speaker A: Yeah, so, you know, bullying mean girl. There are different approaches depending on the specific situation. But, yeah, part of it is working on perspective taking, understanding why they're acting that way, and also really thinking through how do you want to act? You know, what is it that you want to be part of that crowd, or is it that you want to be a good person? And so kind of thinking through what is the, what's the approach going to be here? Based on what the child really wants. And it can shift over time, but perspective taping is a big part of it.
To your point, you know, mean girls may be more confident, but it also could be the opposite, where they're actually very low on confidence. And it's a brittle confidence, it's a facade.
[00:43:49] Speaker B: I think this little girl is just like, mom, I really want her to like me. I really want her to like me. And so she's trying everything to get this girl to like her.
[00:43:56] Speaker A: And that comes down to, you know, we can't control other people. You know, we can't Control how they think, how they feel, how they act.
We can control ourselves and be the best version of us. And if we really want to be friends with her, we can, we can make overtures, right? But we're not going to beat a dead horse. If you. If you try to be friends with her and she doesn't respond, then we just accept, hey, it's not meant to be right now. That doesn't mean that you're a bad person, just means it's not meant to be right now.
[00:44:21] Speaker B: In Switzerland, where I raised my kids, it was very abnormal with the local population to have too many hobbies and too many activities. They just thought, like, one good hobby a week, you know, like, go to a piano lesson, maybe one sport, one. One art, and that was it.
Some of the more affluent people that I knew, their kids were busy all day. Like, they had a. Every day they had a new hobby or some kind of activity. So they. They were constantly taking their kids to riding lessons, karate lessons, this.
[00:44:52] Speaker A: And what.
[00:44:52] Speaker B: What do you think's better?
[00:44:54] Speaker A: Oh, I definitely veer towards the one per week. Absolutely. It's. There's a lot of research to show that kids need downtime, they need food, free play, they need outdoor time. And if your child is truly interested in all those hobbies, by all means do it. There's nothing wrong with that. But we don't need to over schedule our kids. We don't need to pressure them to do everything under the sun. So you, as a family, come up with your goals. You know, what's the priority? You know, for us, we always lived near water.
[00:45:21] Speaker B: It was really important.
[00:45:22] Speaker A: Our kids swam. So in their younger years, that was the priority. It wasn't important that they do everything, you know, from swimming, soccer, to music lessons, all this. You know, we're going to swim, we're going to swim regularly, we're going to swim every week, and we're going to be proficient at it. And so families have to pick what's important to them and what are they going to require, and then everything else after that should just be an option if your kid's interested or not, and just know that the downtime is beneficial to them. You know, play time is hugely important for kids to. To develop their neural architecture and learn how to have successful social interactions, because the social interactions they have in a school setting are very different than in a relaxed play setting, and they need to have both.
[00:46:07] Speaker B: I remember my daughter loved playing Playmobil. She would set up Playmobil worlds in my living room, and it was Impossible to walk in the living room. After a while, she had created so many worlds and it was like, oh, we need to clean this up. But we can't clean the room because it's like we have to take apart her worlds. That was really hard. At one point I just got fed up and I put everything in a garbage bag and stuck it in the attic. And I felt really bad.
[00:46:29] Speaker A: We all meet our limit, right? Like, I've had it.
[00:46:32] Speaker B: Like, it's like you step on one more playmobile. Ouch.
So for parents listening, you know who's listening feels like they're failing right now, which is how I felt at the time.
What do you want them to hear?
[00:46:45] Speaker A: Very few parents are failing. I mean, I touched on three parenting styles today. Authoritarian, permissive, authoritative.
Obviously authoritative is the one that we're promoting. The other two are not ideal, but they're not terrible. There's a fourth, it's called uninvolved neglectful parenting.
The only people who are failing are the kids who are really in that category. Right. If you're truly not spending any time focused on your child during the day, then that needs to change dramatically. But it's a very, very small group of parents in there. And typically it's due to extreme stress. You know, working three jobs, being completely depleted. And that's when we really need to work with your social support system and do anything we can to, to get to a point where you have enough time to spend even just an hour a day with your children. Even if it's in chunks, right? Even if it's two half hours where you can just focus on your kids. But the very few parents are going to be in there. So for all the other parents, the 99% who are feeling like failures, you're not.
You're doing a great job. It's an incredibly hard job. I mean, parenting is the most challenging thing. It's all day, every day, non stop, huge responsibility, right? And so we need to cut ourselves some slack, show some grace. Going way back to the beginning. Remember that 50%. So when we talk about that strong attachment bond and showing up in a warm and responsive way, as long as you get it right about 50% of the time, you're still going to have that great relationship with your child and they're still going to think of you as the world and they're going to feel comfortable falling apart when they're just exhausted after school. So if you come in with reasonable expectations and a goal, and maybe your goal after listening to this is just to Realize, oh, I kind of stray more towards authoritarian or, oh, I kind of stray more towards permissive. Maybe your goal is to just come a little more in the center, a little more to the authoritative parenting style, then that's a huge win.
[00:48:46] Speaker B: That's really helpful. Thank you, Dr. Lindsay. That's really interesting that the neglecting parent is way worse than, let's say, an authoritarian parent.
[00:48:55] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah.
[00:48:56] Speaker B: I. A therapist once told me that. Yeah. That it's better to have a parent screaming at you than to have a parent who just doesn't see you at all.
[00:49:03] Speaker A: Exactly.
[00:49:04] Speaker B: How can people find you in your courses?
[00:49:07] Speaker A: Oh, thanks for asking. So on all my socials, Instagram, TikTok, YouTube and stuff, I'm always Rindsay Emerson and my website is just Dr. Lindsay Emerson dot com. So I've got a bunch of free resources on all those and would love to see you there.
[00:49:20] Speaker B: And then you work one on one with parents who need help.
[00:49:24] Speaker A: Yes, I have one on one coaching. I have a small group coaching. I have a course, I have workshops, all sorts of different ways you can work with me.
[00:49:31] Speaker B: Oh, fantastic.
[00:49:33] Speaker A: Yeah. And I have a podcast called Parenting with psychology. So that's a great place to just get really concrete strategies.
[00:49:40] Speaker B: Wow. A lot of resources out there. Thank you so much.
[00:49:43] Speaker A: Awesome. Well, thanks so much for having me, Diana. It's been a pleasure.
[00:49:46] Speaker B: I wish I had known you when I was raising my little ones.
[00:49:50] Speaker A: Well, you got me for grandkids. Hopefully one day.
[00:49:53] Speaker B: Yes, yes, exactly.
[00:49:54] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:49:54] Speaker B: They're.
[00:49:55] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:49:55] Speaker B: Because mine are 22 and 26. I think they're cooked at this point. Right.
Hard boiled. They're done. Right.
[00:50:02] Speaker A: I bet they're doing great. But there's always something you can do. If any parents listening are having that thought, there's always something you can do to strengthen the relationship, no matter what age.
Love it.
[00:50:16] Speaker B: If this episode landed for you, share it with someone who might need to hear it. And if you haven't already, subscribe so
[00:50:23] Speaker A: you don't miss what.
[00:50:24] Speaker B: What's coming. But here's the real thing. I want you to know if you're carrying something you can't talk about, if you have every resource except someone who actually understands what wealth costs. I work one on one with people like you navigating exactly that. You can reach me@diana oehrli.com. thanks for listening.
