Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: We work with our guides, with our patients, may give them some kind of an experience out in the wilderness. There are certain concepts that a person may understand conceptually in the confines of, say, my therapy office in the city or in Rye, but may not integrate it without some kind of an activity that promotes a visceral understanding of that concept.
[00:00:28] Speaker B: I'm Diana Earley, and I've spent most of my life learning firsthand what privilege actually costs.
The legacy control, the family expectations. The guilt of feeling trapped in a life everyone thinks you should be grateful for. If you've ever wondered why having everything still feels like something's missing, you're in the right place.
Welcome to Pressures of Privilege.
My guest today has been in the trenches of addiction and mental health for 30 years. He's the kind of person you call when you don't know who else to call.
Smart, steady, and honest. In a field that doesn't always reward honesty. Peter Lazar is a therapist, consultant, coach, trainer, and board member based in New York. He works with individuals, many of them high functioning people, who have every resource available and are still stuck. He's the consulting clinical director at Adventure Recovery, a program that takes people out of the clinical office and into the woods, literally. Rivers, mountains, wilderness. Kids, too. Because sometimes healing happens when you're cold and tired and far from your phone. Peter and I have been crossing paths for years at conferences on both sides of the Atlantic. You keep ending up in the same rooms with certain people. Eventually you realize that's not an accident. And here's something I don't take lightly. We share the same recovery date. But that makes this conversation feel a little more personal than most. Peter, welcome to the Pressures of Privilege.
[00:01:57] Speaker A: Thanks for having me, Diana.
[00:01:59] Speaker B: Yeah, you're welcome. I just love seeing you because I kept seeing you at these conferences and some of those conferences aren't happening, so. I miss seeing you.
[00:02:07] Speaker A: Yeah, me too. We've been circling the Runway for quite a while now, and here we are, finally.
[00:02:12] Speaker B: Yeah.
And I remember last time we talked, you were involved with the Freedom Institute in New York, which is now no longer the Freedom Institute. I understand it's been taken over by Silver Hill Hospital. I understand.
[00:02:25] Speaker A: Yes. Yeah, it's, you know, bittersweet. I think they're in very, very good hands. Freedom Institute was the technically, the first intensive outpatient program ever. And they were a not for profit. Still are focusing on, obviously, people with substance use disorders and family therapy. We missed Freedom Institute, but again, they're. They're in really good hands.
[00:02:50] Speaker B: So a lot of these Other IOP programs maybe copied what you guys created in a way.
[00:02:55] Speaker A: Yeah. I mean, there was sort of a model that the state looked at and said, okay, we like what you're doing, and so we're going to create a license and you're going to pay us for it. So that's sort of the short story of how the IOP was born.
[00:03:12] Speaker B: I'm sensing something from you that you're. That.
Okay, so they took a good model and did they keep the good parts, though, I hope.
[00:03:19] Speaker A: I think, you know, I think they did. I think they, you know, oasis, which is the, the licensing body for the state of New York, has always done a good job holding accountable to a standard of excellence treatment providers at the different levels of care, whether they're residential or partial hospital program or intensive outpatient program. In fact, they don't fall under the New York State Office of Mental Health for a variety of reasons. But originally because there was so much stigma attached to people with substance use disorders that the state, in its, its wisdom at the time felt that funding would not go to treatment for substance use disorders if it fell under omh. And so that's why they actually siloed those two entities. Yeah, we know now that it's kind of a different story that substance use disorder is seen as a, as a mental health issue.
And things might be a little different now in terms of the stigma we're getting there. We still have a ways to go.
[00:04:25] Speaker B: So, because you've been doing this for 30 years. So is that one of the things that's changed?
[00:04:29] Speaker A: I mean, I think so. I mean, you're open about your recovery? I'm open about my recovery.
And I think that we're seeing a lot more in the way of sort of public education and information about addiction and not just substance use disorders, but obviously there are a variety of, of addictions that we're, we're seeing these days. And people of notoriety, of course, high profile people are coming out and saying, hey, I have this too.
And I have the same struggles as you. And even though my life might be a little structurally different than yours, at the end of the day, I'm still dealing with the same condition.
And so I think as a result, we're starting to see a bit of a softening around the judgment that is being thrust upon people with addiction issues.
[00:05:27] Speaker B: That's good. It means that the barriers to care are being lifted.
[00:05:31] Speaker A: I think so.
[00:05:31] Speaker B: So that's the good stuff that's changed. What else has changed that maybe isn't so good?
[00:05:37] Speaker A: I Don't know if it's not so good or good.
Obviously, we've seen the advent of Wall street money coming into the addiction treatment space. For a long time. It was either not for profit or mom and pop owned for profit organizations. Right. I'm in private practice.
Technically I'm for profit. So it's just part of the. Part of the world that we're in today.
But what we're seeing over the last, say, 18, 20 years is the advent of financial organizations coming in, investing in treatment programs, buying treatment programs, and building these sort of larger treatment providing organizations. It has its advantages and it has its challenges. Some of the challenges are when you start looking at the bottom line, sometimes it can impact the quality of care.
That's not to say that not for profit organizations aren't looking at the bottom line either, but it is kind of a different emphasis.
One of the advantages of having, say, private equity money come into our world is that it actually did do a lot to raise the profile of the issue of substance use disorders and other addictions and create more awareness. Additionally, treatment centers are able to sort of check off boxes of their wish list for modalities and other aspects of treatment that maybe they couldn't afford to have before. Right. So, for instance, you're seeing treatment centers providing equine assisted psychotherapy. And I am a big believer in equine assisted psychotherapy, but courses are expensive. But there are treatment centers now that can afford to provide that modality which has had such an impact on so
[00:07:41] Speaker B: many people now that more people feel more comfortable going to treatment because there's less stigma associated with it. You work with a lot of high functioning people. Like, what does addiction look like when someone has the means to hide it?
[00:07:53] Speaker A: Well, it's easy to point the finger and say it's, you know, it's denial. Right.
I think that what ends up happening is that people with means tend to have better access to healthcare.
You know, maybe they're.
If they're in better physical shape because they have better access to healthcare, it can kind of stretch out their use cycle.
Also, if people can afford different types of addictions, they may sort of rotate them a little bit. Right.
[00:08:36] Speaker B: Alcohol to.
[00:08:37] Speaker A: To sex to gambling, to, you know. Right. And so almost invariably those, Those addictions start to become fused together until you find that you're sort of pushing against an ocean and serving the disease. Also, I think that if you're. If you have a certain degree of wealth and a certain degree of influence and a certain degree of power, you've Got a lot of people that you influence and they may feel beholden to you unless at least in my experience in working with law partners or CEOs of large financial services firm, people are afraid to speak truth to power. People are afraid to say, you know, enough is enough, you need to get the help. And unfortunately, sometimes until it's too late.
[00:09:25] Speaker B: Very interesting, but I thought that the comment about somebody looking really good, I mean, I know people like that, that look incredibly good despite an underlying addiction. And I keep wondering how they're able to stay looking so good knowing the substances that they take on a regular basis.
[00:09:41] Speaker A: Sure. And that doesn't mean they don't go to their personal trainer and that doesn't mean that they don't have their vitamin B12SH. And that doesn't mean that they don't have, you know, whatever it is that they may have access to to help them to look better or to change their, their, you know, or, or rather to keep their phys. Physiognomy up to a certain level where they can handle the drugs longer. Right. And then of course we can't ignore the family system. And you know, if you have a family, a family system that lends itself toward codependency or whatever you want to call it, where, you know, you have a, A family dynamic that lends itself towards secrecy, secrecy, which by the way, is something you see at almost every socioeconomic level. But you know, families with means, usually there's one or two people who are really calling the shots. And if that one or two. If those one or two people are, have an addiction issue, the rest of the family tends to fall in line and kind of either sweep it under the rug or even to a certain extent, enable it.
[00:10:51] Speaker B: There's also that sort of silver spoon syndrome.
We're afraid of what the neighbors are going to think. Not just people of wealth, I know, like pastors, doctors, pilots. These people who are in these sort of higher positions in society have a harder time being like. They just don't want people to know that they're vulnerable and are human and have human problems.
[00:11:13] Speaker A: That's right. You know, there are certain circles perhaps that support the behavior. Right. Like perhaps or even normalize the behavior. Like clubs, certain clubs and certain social organizations. And the other thing is, you know, if you have the means, you are more likely to be able to stave off legal consequences. A DUI can be handled differently by somebody who has means rather than somebody who doesn't.
[00:11:51] Speaker B: You do a lot of work with divorced single parents.
[00:11:53] Speaker A: That's Right.
[00:11:54] Speaker B: And what do kids absorb that parents don't realize they're teaching everything.
[00:12:03] Speaker A: You know, one of my favorite phrases that I like to tell parents who are in intact marriages or in.
In challenged marriages or during and post divorce. And during divorce, that is such a critical time. I tell them all what kids observe. They absorb. You think they're not paying attention, but they're at a time in their lives when they're naturally predisposed to learning. Right. You're sending them to school.
So their brains are wired toward absorbing information, and they're paying attention, especially to parents to whom they look for stability.
They are learning about how to have a relationship with wealth, how to have a relationship with money, how to have a relationship with.
With somebody you care deeply for, your work ethic, et cetera, how you respond to stress.
Right. So kids are always paying attention.
And so one of the things that I tell my.
My parents who are sort of peri. Divorce or post divorce is your kids are paying attention.
You cannot say anything, you know, that will disparage or. Or blame your soon to be ex spouse or your ex spouse, even if they're in the wrong, because the kids will. Will feel that, and it will actually have an adverse impact on their identity development because they identify with the parents. And so it causes confusion. Wait, I'm supposed to be. I'm supposed to not trust my father? Well, you know, and sometimes what ends up happening is the person who's in the right if their boundaries are not great, you know, it's not always black and white, right and wrong. Right. Because relationships have their complexities. But just to illustrate the point, the parent who may be badmouthing the other parent, who may be a wonderful and stellar parent, the kids are going to question that parent's motives, and it can affect their ability to believe what they see and to trust.
[00:14:33] Speaker B: Oh, my goodness, that sounds awful for a child to not be able to trust one of their primary caregivers.
[00:14:42] Speaker A: That's why at the very least, I, you know, I. I tell my, My patients it's gonna be hard, but the best thing you can do for your divorce is focus on consciously parenting your kids in a way that, you know, supports them through it.
Also focus on yourself, focus on your own mental health. And, you know, there's that old analogy about being on the airplane in case of loss of cabin pressure. You put the mask on yourself first. Well, there's a reason for that. Right.
But you always have to pay attention to how you're reacting to your circumstances in your relationship. With your spouse, in your relationship with your soon to be ex or your ex spouse. Kids are watching.
[00:15:28] Speaker B: Actually, I know a couple going through a divorce right now and one of them is calling the other a narcissist. Do you hear that a lot?
[00:15:37] Speaker A: No, not these days.
[00:15:39] Speaker B: I think that word is just being bandied about a lot.
[00:15:42] Speaker A: Isn't is being bandied about a lot.
The good news is that we all have some form of narcissistic trait. And you know, and if you're a person with a history of substance use disorder, that is something with which you will have to contend your entire life because it is sort of a, a selfish condition. And I don't mean that in a, in a shaming way. It's more like the focus really becomes me, me, me, what am I going to do next? How am I going to get I next, what do I need to do to get there? You know, and so it sort of brainwashes you that way and will have an effect on your character.
[00:16:21] Speaker B: And in this case, they're thinking of putting the kids in, in therapy. Do you think that's a good idea that the kids go into therapy?
[00:16:28] Speaker A: As a therapist, on paper, I would say yes. However, one of the pitfalls that parents should avoid is sending their kids to therapy when they may not yet need it. How do most children express their or their feelings about their life experience? They do it through their behavior. Your 6 year old kid is not going to go, you know what, dad, I'm really upset about the way that you yelled at mom and it kind of scared me and it made me wonder if I can trust either one of you because they don't do that. You know, they stop eating, they bite their nails, they, you know, develop ticks, they act out at school, et cetera, et cetera.
So what ends up happening is, you know, parents are so exhausted from going through their divorce and having, maybe they have jobs, maybe they have other responsibilities, et cetera, et cetera. They're just going to throw their kids into therapy before they really try to sit down with them and talk with them and be curious about them, be interested in them and let them know that it's okay to have these feelings. It's not okay to beat up your sibling.
It's not okay to, you know, to throw things at school, but it is okay to have those feelings, to want to do those things. It is okay to, to, and it's okay to tell me what it is that you're experiencing. So I am a believer in therapy for children, especially during These challenging times.
But what ends up happening is if you pull the trigger on that too quickly, the kids will start to believe that there's something wrong with them, that the parents think that there's something wrong with them. When everybody was getting a divorce in the 70s, all of a sudden we had children with ADD and ADHD that were really just saying, I'm too scared to tell you how I feel, so I'm gonna act out.
And I can't focus because I'm terrified of the way my parents are treating each other. And I don't know how to tell. I don't know how to express it. That doesn't mean ADHD isn't a thing. Of course it is.
But I'm just wondering if maybe back then, had we paid more attention to that, would we have discovered how to properly diagnose add, ADHD a little. A little sooner?
[00:18:57] Speaker B: So this would be better if people would just clean as they go, Right? I like. I know that's one of your favorite phrases.
[00:19:02] Speaker A: Oh, I see what you did there. I see what you did there. That was good. What does that mean? So in our. In our offline discussion, you and I talked about one of my favorite stories about my first job at a fast food restaurant. Restaurant in New City, New York, where I grew up, and it was McDonald's, and I was 16, and I worked my way up from pots and pans to.
To Quarter Pounders. But in between them, there was a new food that they were introducing called Chicken McNuggets. And so, you know, I did that, and then I moved up the ladder to.
To the. The burgers and the Quarter Pounders.
And on my first day, my first shift with the Quarter Pounders, you know, you had your griddle in front of you, and then you had your. The. The fixings behind you, all the ketchup and mustard and lettuce and tomatoes and pickles, et cetera, and onions.
And about a third of the way through my shift, my manager walked up to me and he said, lazar, stop for a second.
I stopped. He says, look at your feet.
Like what? He says, look at your feet. So I looked down at my boots, and they were covered in ketchup and mustard and pickles and lettuce and onions and tomatoes, et cetera, et cetera. And he said, listen, I am not going to pay you to stay longer to clean up after your shift, and the next guy on your shift shouldn't have to clean up after you.
So my advice to you is, from the minute you start your shift, Clean as you go.
I didn't realize at the moment he was giving me relationship advice, financial advice, housekeeping advice. Although if he asked my wife, I might not have still learned that lesson.
And, you know, it's. And it makes so much sense. Right. When you talk, when you're in a relationship with somebody, things are going to come up, your feelings are going to get hurt.
Right. Or you might have a perception about something that your loved one did or said that you may be confused about.
So one of the things that I think is a challenge for a lot of people, especially people in families where substance use disorder is. Is. Is prevalent or any kind of addiction, is to actually talk about things as they happen.
It's okay to take a breath. It's okay to take a beat. It's okay to check in with somebody you trust and say, you know what? My. My brother did this thing, and I'm not sure how to react to it, you know, but this is how I'm feeling about it. And talk it through with somebody you trust. But don't waste too much time.
[00:21:47] Speaker B: I know a couple here in Newport, and he. He told me, and he said he cannot go to sleep unless he's talked through an issue with his wife. Like, they have to talk it through before they can go to bed. Otherwise he can't sleep.
[00:21:59] Speaker A: Yeah. Sometimes the spouse doesn't want to process it right away, and that's okay, too. But, you know, I do love the aspirational piece about, you know, never going to bed angry.
[00:22:12] Speaker B: Well, yeah, so it reminds me of that reframe that you like, but you've mentioned in your. I think in some of your writing, you reframe hard times as happening for you, whereas instead of happening to you.
[00:22:26] Speaker A: Yeah, that came about as a.
A function of the people that I was working with during the COVID crisis and, you know, people losing their jobs, people obviously losing loved ones. And how do you even reconcile that? That's, you know, that was a real tragedy if you lost anyone in Covid. But, you know, a lot of things happened. And the phrase because of COVID usually refers to something that wasn't so great as a result of the pandemic.
And so people would come into my virtual room at the time, and even after saying, because of COVID this happened to me, and because of COVID that happened to me. And, you know, all of these horrible things that as therapists, we, you know, we were privileged to.
To help people walk through. But there was so much talk about the negative impact, I started to wonder. Well, What. What good came from it as a result, as well.
[00:23:38] Speaker B: Right.
[00:23:38] Speaker A: There's not much good that comes from losing a loved one to Covid, I would think.
But what I do know is that some folks responded pretty well to Covid, and there were a percentage of them that would say, well, I got to spend more time with my family.
I figured out a way to restructure my business so that I could work from home so that I'm not spending all my time in the car on the commute.
And so those are just a couple of examples. But to your point, it's, you know, when it comes to adversity and trauma, there isn't only a dark lining, sometimes there is something that can happen for you. I've seen people decide to have families. I've seen people who change their careers and developed a certain amount of perspective as a result of their experience in Covid.
[00:24:37] Speaker B: I remember a therapist telling me once, I am. So he. She said early, I'm so happy your. Your ex boyfriend won't take you back. Because I was, like, groveling to. For him to take me back. He's like, he's doing you a service, like, because you're. You need to work through these codependency feelings or whatever. Well, she didn't put it that way, but she said, you. You've got some stuff to work through.
And. And it. It's actually good. He's not taking you back because you need to work through this.
[00:25:06] Speaker A: Yes.
If you've ever heard the phrase that rejection can be divine protection, that can be true too.
[00:25:16] Speaker B: It can be. You know, I'm. I have to say now, fast forward 14 years, I'm happy with what I've done since. You know, I still love the guy as a brother, but I, you know, I'm glad that I'm not that I've grown as. As. As a person since.
I'm grateful for that. That growth.
[00:25:32] Speaker A: Yeah. And you have, at least from my vantage point, developed a professional life that is geared toward mentoring people and helping people in a very specific way.
So you got focused and you got moving, which is a great sign of resiliency.
[00:25:52] Speaker B: Oh, thank you. Well, it was one of those things where I was so afraid of emotional pain, and when I told, look, emotional pain won't kill you, I'm like, what? It feels like it's gonna kill me. It's so bad. It's horrible. It's a horrible feeling. And when I learned that you just have to kind of go through it, that you get to the other side and it doesn't kill you. You feel so much stronger afterwards.
[00:26:14] Speaker A: Yeah. They don't call them growing pleasures.
[00:26:18] Speaker B: Yeah, I guess that's a different kind of pain than when you were giving birth. I always wondered, like, the pain of childbirth is so excruciating, and then you have amnesia. You forget how bad it was.
[00:26:30] Speaker A: Yeah, well, not something I can exactly relate to, but from what I've heard. Yes.
[00:26:36] Speaker B: Just thinking about that or. One of my habits was getting involved with, you know, sort of like the kinds of guys who aren't really family type of guys. They're. You know, they're just. They're a lot of fun, but not the kind of guys who want to settle down and have a family. And you'd think that of each breakup would lead to me going, okay, that's enough.
[00:26:52] Speaker A: Now, I always tell people the. The. Some of the answers are in the pattern, and the emotional pain that one feels may not necessarily be the piece that requires resolution, because we're gonna have feelings, we're gonna have pain, we're going to have sadness or anger or fear. I don't count anxiety as an emotion because technically it's a diagnosis. But.
But.
But sadness is. And anticipatory fear is. Right.
So. Which is usually what anxiety is. Right.
[00:27:33] Speaker B: What's the difference between anticipatory fear and anxiety?
[00:27:37] Speaker A: When you're feeling fear and you name it, you can say, well, this is. This is the thing that's making me afraid. Generally. Again, I'm getting technical and fancy on you, but it' like generalized anxiety disorder. Okay, I'm feeling anxious, I'm feeling stressed. Which, if you watch the West Wing, you would learn. That's a Madison Avenue word, stress. So, you know, those.
Anxiety is a diagnosis that has a list of criteria that you must meet in order to have that. Right. So what I like to tell people is I'll say to them, well, you know, if this earpod case was made of glass and it was your anxiety, and if we threw it to the floor and it broke into a number of pieces, each piece representing a belief that you have about yourself, a belief that you have about the situation, and an emotion that you have, or two or three, were you to build that back up into one whole airpod case, would add up to your anxiety, what would those pieces be? Let's not talk about the smoke. Let's talk about what's in the fire.
[00:28:47] Speaker B: What would be an example of what's in the fire?
[00:28:49] Speaker A: Say, a person who struggles with borderline personality disorder. One of the salient features of A person with borderline personality disorder is fear of rejection, which is usually an attachment based belief having to do with past traumas and other factors. And so it, it sort of trains you again back into that brainwashing thing. It, it trains you into believing that you are unlovable.
And I'm going to prove it because I want it to be true, but I don't want it to be true. They may have this fear of rejection and conduct themselves in the context of relationships such that with a certain quality of desperation or unstable mood and judgment. And you see a lot of this kangaroo court sort of dynamic that goes on where the other person feels like they're walking on eggshells all the time. Well, there's a reason for that.
They will push you to the point where you say, I can't do this anymore, I have to go. And then the person with borderline personality gets to say, see, I was right, I'm unlovable.
So it has that feedback loop, you know, this anxious attachment that you'll have that a person with borderline personality will have to. Just about everyone they, they come in contact with eventually will see its way to fruition of rejection.
[00:30:25] Speaker B: Yeah, they're in that loop of why, I wonder.
[00:30:27] Speaker A: I think a lot of it has to do with a belief that they have about themselves that they are unlovable and a pervasive lack of identity. Even people who have substance use disorders very often sort of blow up their identity to become this servant to their addiction. Pushes everybody away, has the same effect.
[00:30:55] Speaker B: How do you go about rebuilding your identity or getting an identity if you never knew what it was?
[00:31:01] Speaker A: Well, you know, Diana, as a therapist, I like to say therapy, but there are many ways in which you can do it.
I am a big believe again, it's like the feelings are not always the problem to be solved.
You're going to have emotions, you're given a rainbow of emotions.
And some. And we've become so reliant on our emotions as evidence of how our life is going that we very often, many people sort of forget that. You have to look at the circumstances, look at your, the patterns of your behavior that are often rooted in how we feel about ourselves in relation to the world called our ego. Right.
So if you function as somebody who thinks that they're a worthless person, it's going to be very difficult for them to, to, to achieve.
For example.
[00:31:57] Speaker B: So you got to break the belief. The, the limiting belief.
[00:32:00] Speaker A: Yes. So the problem, the, the, the, the, the, the emotions are not always the problem to be Solved. Most of the time it's not. It's what you're doing in your life.
And every time I see somebody say, you know what, I'm going to get that black Delta and they do it, other things start to open up for them in their lives.
You know, I'm going to quit my job at the firm and I'm going to open a food truck. Well, great. If they can afford to do it, wonderful. They're doing something that is transformative for themselves. Right. And it doesn't have to be that big. It could just be.
Meditating in the morning can be a transformational purpose for people like Little Wins
[00:32:43] Speaker B: because I'm a big fan of tiny habits and like little 100%. Well, one of the things that you do, which I think is a huge win, is you take people, including kids, into the wilderness.
And I was just wondering, what does nature do that a therapy office can't do?
[00:33:00] Speaker A: Yes. So to add some context to that, I personally don't work with children. Adventure Recovery, which is the organization that I consult with, I'm their consulting clinical director.
They are a nature informed therapy and coaching organization that's based in Canaan, Connecticut where they have a base camp. They do a variety of nature based activities. Oh, I should also say they're located in, in Colorado and working on some other things, other locations as well.
We have a presence out in, in California. Um, so we'll, we provide coaching and therapy out in the wilderness. Um, and we have certified guides who are all medically certified as well as certified in the activities that we, that we may offer such as mountain biking, mountain climbing, swift water activities like kayaking, for example, caving, you know, et cetera, et cetera. We can do it if we have a certified guide.
We can bring them out as far and as hard and as fast and as deep as they want to go. We work with our guides, together with our patients and may give them some kind of an experience out in the wilderness. We use sort of the power of metaphor to help people through certain mental health issues. Many people are experiential learners. Right.
So there's that phrase, what I hear, I forget, what I see, I remember and what I do, I understand.
And yeah, that was actually on a plaque in my elementary school. I never forgot it. There are certain concepts that a person may understand conceptually in the confines of say, my therapy office in the city or in Rye, but may not integrate it without some kind of an activity that promotes an understanding, a visceral understanding of that concept.
Right. And again I'll go back to the idea of experiential.
When I worked for a treatment center, it was based in Tennessee. I had a colleague, his name was Bobby is Bobby Chapman. Bobby, who is arguably one of the best residential treatment therapists I've ever seen, had a we that he built a harness on the top of a 80 foot pre civil war dam.
And he would put you in a harness, have you stand at the top of the dam and leap off.
[00:36:04] Speaker B: Oh my God, Yes.
[00:36:07] Speaker A: It's crazy. Sounds crazy. Was totally safe, stayed inspected, had certified belayers. All the equipment was properly rigged.
We do this all the time. If you've ever been to a climbing gym, right.
And what people learn is about the, the concept of making a decision, daring to take that first step because it's not about the fall. And by the way, when they drop it's usually like three or four feet. It's not 80ft, you know, it's about taking that first step. It's about, so it's, it's, it's about the decision to. And the action of taking that step, not about the fall.
And so that does wonders for people who struggle with identity confusion, with self esteem, struggle with a belief in oneself.
And, and, and it, it really helps them with this concept of as we say in the, the rooms of 12 steps, surrender to win. That you can accomplish something when you actually figure out a way to let go of the thing that's keeping you back. And what is the thing that's keeping most people back from growing as humans but fear And a belief that whatever it is they think they believe in, not good enough, they're going to fail. Et cetera, et cetera. Yeah. So experiential therapy, I'm a huge fan of that.
Whether it's, you know, on a zipline or in a sweat lodge. We can turn anything outside that belongs outside into some kind of a therapeutic experiential that has value for that individual.
[00:37:56] Speaker B: That's so cool. Is there a nature component beyond the experiential? Like the idea of being like in a forest with trees, fresh air?
[00:38:05] Speaker A: Of course you don't have to summit K2 to get the benefit.
Sometimes it's just a moderate hike through the woods and we have plenty of that at our base camp or we can go just about anywhere.
We do a lot of coach trainings in the Adirondacks and if you know anything about EMDR eye movement desensitization and reprocessing, it uses by bilateral stimulation to mimic our deepest relaxed state REM Sleep right. So is a walk in the woods. Left, right, left, right, left, right. And studies show that all you have to do is stand outside in nature for a little while in order for your central nervous system to reset.
[00:38:50] Speaker B: That's why I love living on Fifth Avenue. I love being next to the park.
[00:38:54] Speaker A: Yes, a hundred percent Adventure recovery has and will work with people in Central Park.
[00:39:00] Speaker B: My son came to visit me in New York, and we were walking through the brambles, and he's like, mom, there's more nature here than in Newport, Rhode Island.
[00:39:09] Speaker A: That may be true.
[00:39:10] Speaker B: We were squirrel. There were coyotes. It was unbelievable.
[00:39:13] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:39:14] Speaker B: And I also. I remember when I first got into 12th step, there was somebody in the meeting who said, imagine you're on a dock. We need to get over the other side.
And when you step a boat, is magic magically going to appear? When you. When your foot lands on the water, you're like, no, don't trust that. That's sort of what it feels like to trust that the process works. It's sort of like you. You have to take that step and then. And. And when you do take that step, the boat magically appears.
[00:39:41] Speaker A: And very often when they feel that sense that it was okay, you start to believe it's going to be okay.
And I can't tell you how many times I've seen people step off of Bobby Chapman's wall and immediately say, okay, can I do that again?
[00:40:04] Speaker B: Or. You're not creating adrenaline addicts.
[00:40:06] Speaker A: I hope some of them already were, but yes.
[00:40:08] Speaker B: Yeah, I wanted to get into music.
[00:40:10] Speaker A: Now we're talking. Let's go.
[00:40:11] Speaker B: Yeah. Talk about music and how important it is to you and in your life.
[00:40:15] Speaker A: Well, I don't play golf, so being in a band and playing music is my golf game.
Mostly because I'm terrible at golf. But in addition to that, I love playing music and I love the idea of orchestrating a song with other musicians and having that sonic experience sort of meld together into something that people might actually listen to or like.
And so it's a real pleasure to do that.
That is my go to band's called Bad Gummies.
[00:40:53] Speaker B: That's a great name.
[00:40:55] Speaker A: I got outvoted on that one, but I've come to appreciate it. It's a cute name.
[00:41:00] Speaker B: And what instrument do you play?
[00:41:02] Speaker A: I play guitar.
[00:41:03] Speaker B: Oh, my God. Like my son.
[00:41:05] Speaker A: Yeah, I play guitar and I sing.
[00:41:07] Speaker B: Oh, my God. What kind of. What style?
[00:41:09] Speaker A: Well, we're mostly rock covers, but we also do covers of covers, so we might reimagine certain Songs that you might be familiar with and put a different twist on it.
[00:41:21] Speaker B: Well, you know how good it is for the brain to be playing an instrument, right?
[00:41:24] Speaker A: Absolutely. Well, we can turn that into yet another therapeutic equivalent. Is that these vibrations, much like binaural tones which you get in neurofeedback, can also have a relaxing effect on the nervous system.
[00:41:40] Speaker B: That's so cool. There's some great research from this Dr. Mui Rui Rui.
And she's actually shown that she's an oncologist. Neuro. Neuroscientist. That patients going into surgery require less pain medication after being exposed to music.
[00:42:01] Speaker A: Oh, that's interesting.
[00:42:02] Speaker B: Isn't that cool? Yeah.
[00:42:03] Speaker A: Yeah. I don't know if I'd be the one to test that theory, but I like it.
[00:42:07] Speaker B: That's so funny. Well, thank you so much, Peter. It was such a pleasure. I could talk to you for hours.
[00:42:12] Speaker A: Same here. No, this is wonderful. Thank you. Diana.
[00:42:17] Speaker B: If this episode landed for you, share it with someone who might need to hear it. And if you haven't already, subscribe so you don't miss what's coming. But here's the real thing. I want you to know if you're carrying something you can't talk about, if you have every resource except someone who actually understands what wealth costs. I work one on one with people like you navigating exactly that. You can reach me@diana oehrli.com. thanks for listening.
